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Jerry Katz founded Nonduality Salon in
1998, the first online place where people could speak
freely about nonduality without the hovering presence of
a specific teacher or tradition. This kind of a free,
unaffiliated, and independent nonduality was novel in
its time. Thus a "people's nonduality" was born. Free of
bonds to academia, a guru, or an tradition -- but
friendly to all -- it attracted independent realizers
and seekers. Through blogging, social media, and
in-person gatherings, "people's nonduality" has grown to
become a cultural/spiritual niche. Jerry also started
the first independent nonduality website, Nonduality.com.
His newsletter, the Nonduality Highlights, has published
over 4500 issues since 1999. He lives in Halifax, Nova
Scotia, where he holds regular satsangs. He travels
around the world to share the message of nonduality.
Through all these efforts, Jerry Katz has believed that
the word "nonduality", or some form of it, is a teaching
in itself, since anyone looking up the meaning of the
word could enter into a radically new world view.
www.nonduality.com .
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INTERVIEW
In
some of the ancient non dual traditions such as
Buddhism, Jainism, Yoga, Advaita Vedanta, Sufism, Gnostic
Christianity, dana (genorosity)or forms of this practice is
built right into the teachings and they say a very significant
part of it. In
terms of contemporary non duality, is a non duality teacher more
like being a professional psychologist, or a scientist of some
kind?
Jerry
Katz: Today's nonduality has no center of authority and there is
no typical nondualist. At one extreme is the Baumann Foundation
which funds investigation into conscious experience. There are
also people giving away teachings, books, and time at various
meetups and gatherings. Many provide free access to some of
their writings and videos. At the other extreme there was Osho
-- Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh -- who generated huge profits and
invested them in a hundred Rolls Royce automobiles. Andrew
Cohen, Eckhart Tolle, and Deepak Chopra also appear to attract
relatively large sums of money, and there are others.
In
between are those who charge fees that would at least cover
expenses, if not result in a profit. These people fall into such
categories as
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Teachers, educators, sages, spiritual personalities, and gurus.
-- Those
who combine their profession with the teaching of nonduality,
especially psychotherapists.
-- Yoga
teachers and alternative/holistic health practitioners.
--
Writers, bloggers, and artists of all sorts.
--
Anyone else who creates value while incorporating the teaching
of nonduality, most especially compilers, producers, publishers,
and distributors of nonduality media.
--
Conference organizers.
--
Educational institutions, such as California Institute of
Integral Studies.
Upon
becoming self-realized, one doesn't immediately think, "Now I
can make some money." Rather, there is the unstoppable tendency
to express truth in one's own way. One lives and speaks from
beingness, and cannot do otherwise.
However,
the crystallization of context for one's coming from beingness
-- that is, the packaging and distribution of expressions of
truth -- generates costs. Someone has to pay for satsang, a
book, a painting, a play, a conference, a workshop, a meetup, a
psychotherapy session, a scientific study, and other
crystallizations of context.
Some
people don't bother getting self-realized or enlightened. They
see business opportunity in being enlightened. They pretend to
be enlightened by learning the language, mannerisms, and culture
of enlightenment and then charge a lot of money for courses,
seminars, books, etc.
Anyone
who has an understanding of nonduality, whether or not they are
enlightened, can declare themself a teacher of nonduality.
What is it that fundamentally drives or motivates someone to
charge for the teachings or not to charge?
Jery
Katz: For one who see things as they are, there's only acting
directly and appropriately, and that could mean charging
outrageous amounts, giving away outrageous amounts, and every
degree of interaction in between. Self-realization and
motivation are incongruous. Motivation is not a middle ground
between being and doing. We don't see motivational speakers
within the nonduality community. Motivation does not need to be
stimulated, awakened, or injected into the life of
self-realization. It would only be a distraction. Rather, we
tend to see teachers neutralizing motivation, advising you that
there is no such thing as enlightenment, declaring that your
thoughts are not real, and stating that you are not who you
think you are. They remove the ground for motivation. However,
they are not anti-motivational either. If anything, nonduality
teachers are pro-"being". Just be and allow action to arise. The
element of motivation is nowhere to be found in that instruction
as it would be an intrusion.
The
question becomes, "Is there motivation present when it comes to
charging or not charging for teachings?" Yes, in some cases. I
don't know how easy it is to know whether there is motivation or
not. And even a teacher with solid motivations could be
beneficial to someone at some point in their life. As far as
what those motivations are, they are entwined with
thought-formed and programmed selves and therefore hard to
extract and identify. All I'm suggesting is to look at the
nature of motivation and to see whether it has a place in
relation to being and acting. And if you see a teacher
apparently acting from a specific motivation, consider anyway
whether the teaching could benefit you.
If
Ramana, or Papaji did not charge or ask for donations, then why
do students of these who got these teachings for free, turn
around and charge others in the west?
Jerry
Katz: Someone paid something to support Ramana and Papaji. Even
if the government of India provided the land, the maintenance,
and the food -- and I don't know if it did -- someone paid.
The
students are functioning in different contexts. Yet the truth
still holds that someone pays for the packaging and delivery of
teachings.
It's
also possible that some teachers are not self-realized, and
therefore the natural tendency to simply give away teachings
isn't developed. One might consider that the self-realized
teacher who is giving away teachings doesn't stop and think,
"I'm giving away teachings." They're just living. If someone is
prideful that they are giving away teachings, or if the giving
away of teachings is part of a strategy toward extracting money
from followers, they may as well charge. There's no difference.
There is
also the opinion that teachings are not valued unless one pays a
significant amount of money for them. Other people are
suspicious of anything given away for free. In that regard, some
students actually want to pay a lot of money for an encounter
with a nonduality sage, and those students should be served.
What
"should" a nonduality teacher do? Live in a natural way. Whether
that means creating huge profits and whimsically buying fancy
cars, or creating a foundation and giving money away in an
intentional and thoughtful manner, or striking a balance between
costs and donations received, it does not matter at all. The joy
and wonder of existence is nature playing out in a vast
multitude of ways. That is, the beingness of nature is its
activity.