UNMANI

Skype interview with non duality magazine July through September 2011

Unmani grew up in London in a loving family, but even as a little girl she felt that something was missing in her life. She began searching for answers everywhere she went. When she was 18 Unmani went to live in Israel. There she lived on a kibbutz and went to Tel Aviv University. The drive to find what she was looking for then sent her to the Far East. She worked in Japan for a while, travelled in Thailand and spent three years in India. There she spent time at the Osho commune in Pune as well as various other meditation centres. However, it was only when she met a German Zen master that she truely found what she was looking for. She finally woke up out of the dream of separation and recognised her true nature as Life itself. For the first time in her life, Unmani could just enjoy life, so by way of a celebration she went to Australia for a year and half where she lived on beaches and ate mangos and coconuts! Later Unmani returned to the UK, where she wrote her first book I am Life itself. This has now been translated and published in several other languages. Unmani began holding small meetings in Not-Knowing in the UK and over the last few years these meetings have grown and now Unmani travels around the world holding meetings and retreats.
 

NDM: I would like to begin with a background question about your teacher. Who was your teacher and can you tell me about your teacher and the kind of methods that your teacher used?

Unmani: I have had many teachers, but the one that was the most significant was a woman called Dolano. She is German but lives in India. I spent some time with her there. It was the first time I had ever come across this message at all. She was calling what she was doing the last satsang. For me it was the first and the last. The way I came across her was actually quite interesting because I had heard about her about a year before that, but I guess I wasn't really ready for such a direct message then. I was still meditating and doing various other things, so I didn’t feel ready to step out of that.

I heard that Dolano was only inviting people to come to her "who were ready to die" That seemed pretty scary. So a year went by after I had first heard of her and I was feeling pretty desperate by then. I had done some therapy groups at the OSHO commune and I was going through a lot of heavy emotional stuff trying to figure out my childhood. I was feeling pretty depressed, in fact in one of those therapy groups I broke my leg in an attempt to kill my mother! (Laughs)

NDM: Really, that sound pretty severe. (Laughs)

Unmani: It was a catharsis session. I was pumped full of adrenaline and was kind of kicking the padded walls.

NDM: So it was regressive therapy?

Unmani: Yep and I broke my leg. (laughs) I broke it and I continued jumping and dancing after the catharsis session even after it was broken, because I was so wired. And of course I was in bed for some weeks after that and couldn't move because of such pain and being in a cast. In the time that I was lying in bed I was feeling really really desperate and pretty suicidal, so I emailed Dolano saying that I think I’m ready to die. I waited for her response and some days later she wrote back saying 'write to me when you are sure you are ready to die'. This threw me into even more turmoil. I felt very suicidal. Really it was just the end. I didn't see any point in continuing to live like that. I realized that she wasn't messing about. I couldn't just test the water and then run away, I had to just jump in with both feet.

Actually looking back on that, I am extremely grateful for that email exchange. Anyway a few chaotic and very emotional days later, I wrote back to her and said look I'm really desperate, I'm ready to die, I'm absolutely sure. So she invited me to come. In the time I spent with her, it was in a group with some other people. We investigated the reality of various spiritual concepts, and beliefs and the question 'who am I?'. I remember at the time, imagining that I'm supposed to understand or get something more than I already had somehow. I was looking for what she was pointing to. And at some point in that time, I realized that what she was pointing to was what I had always known since I was a child. I have always known this as long as I can remember. I actually never believed that I was a separate person ever. And I guess I was waiting for someone to say it out loud. And she was the first one that said it.

Once I realized what she was pointing to, there was a relaxation and some courage started growing in me. Courage to admit that ‘yes, I am life itself’. Nothing less than that. I guess I had been quite insecure before that: buying into various beliefs about how unworthy I was. Then there was the realization that ‘no, I'm actually all that is’, and all of those insecure stories, thoughts, are appearing in that. So I’m extremely grateful to her for that time.

She has been the main influence but there have been others as well.

NDM: Like who?

Unmani: Well, after I was with her, then I spent a couple of years in Australia. Not actually going to any teachers really then I came back to England and I came across Tony Parsons and Nathan Gill.

I hadn't lived in England for more than 10 years, so I really didn't know anyone. So I started going to Tony Parsons' meetings for a bit of a social life. (laughs) I made a lot of friends there. Nathan Gill actually doesn't teach anymore.  His expression was so beautifully crystal clear.  I found it very helpful at that time to clear up any loose ends that I may of had conceptually. After having being with Dolano there was a great relaxation in me and there were a couple of years in Australia where I didn't feel to search anymore. I was really just relaxing and having fun. But I also felt quite lost in the world and wondered how to live with this in a practical daily way.  Hearing Nathan Gill and Tony Parsons, using a completely different language to Dolano was very refreshing and helpful in that way. Such a different language, very much down to earth, nothing spiritual about it, just very simple, very ordinary way of expressing it.

NDM: So that actually goes right into the next question. What I find interesting is the language that you use; or the pointers that you use, such as calling your website "Not Knowing".  How did you come up with the phrase "not knowing"; using that as a pointer.  Did that come from somewhere else?

Unmani: Actually, I want to let you in on a little secret, I am about to change my website name from Not-Knowing to www.Die-to-Love.com.  In fact by the time this interview goes live, the new website might be live too.

NDM: Really? Why is that? I know that the title of your second book is ‘Die to Love’.

Unmani: Well, I have been ‘teaching’ for more than 8 years and I have noticed my expression in meetings and retreats naturally evolving. When I first started, in England, I was one of the very few women teachers in a very male-dominated world. I was afraid of really being too radical or too strong as a woman. In fact I never saw myself as a teacher or authority figure and I had no wish to ‘change the world’. I simply wanted to quietly express my gratitude to the child I was.  When I was a child I always knew this.  So each meeting became a kind of a song of gratitude to that child that always knew she didn't know anything and didn't need to know. That was the not-knowing I have pointed to.  That hasn't changed since I was a child.

But as time has gone by, there has been a natural evolution. This expression can not stay the same and become stagnant. It inevitably changes and truth continues to push the boundaries of belief. Courage has grown and I no longer care about not appearing too strong as a woman. The expression has become more and more uncompromising as well as uniquely intimate.

NDM: So you have evolved as a woman?

Unmani: Well, in a way you could say that. Usually female spiritual teachers are either pretty soft, sweet and virginal, or they are like the mother archetype. As a woman, I am not really like that. I am a firey, sensual, wild woman who can also be soft and sweet, or mothering, or shy and vulnerable, but I am not limited to one aspect or way of being. In the past perhaps, I have compromised the wild nature in order not scare people off and to fit in with my surroundings. Now, it can not hide any longer and seems to burst out more and more. The energy likened to the goddess Kali (the destroyer of illusion), is coming through what I do and say more and more. It is a powerful force of love.

NDM: So is this what you mean by Die to Love?

Unmani: Yes, it is. I like Die to love because it is a description of the way life is. There is a continual death of everything you think you know or believe in, and this death is a death or sacrifice to love in each moment. Lose what you think you are to love. Offer it up on the altar of love right now.

I like using the 2 words that we love and fear most, in one sentence. We fear death because we imagine it as being the end of our lives that we have believed in. But we also often long for it because we are exhausted with this trying to be someone. We love the idea of love and we long for the fantasy of love but we fear the reality of it because we know that true love is all-consuming – like death.

What I am doing in these meetings and retreats (and in fact in life in general) is dying to love. Every thought, hope, or fear is being burnt up in love. And this is not the dreamy, feeling of love, but a ruthless sword that chops off heads. Gently but directly there is an unveiling of who we really are, beyond everything we think. Actually realising the ‘freedom from mental slavery’ that we long for, means questioning the reality of every belief that appears in this that I am, and recognizing that I am not this, not that. Not just talking about it. This can be uncomfortable but also very liberating and real.

NDM: So how do you feel that your expression has changed in the meetings and retreats that you do?

Unmani: When I first started ‘teaching’ about 8 years ago, I sat at the front of the room and took questions from the audience. After a few years of this, I started feeling that something was getting stagnant. Something wasn’t feeling right with this format any more. I found that it encouraged intellectual debate rather than a real enquiry into what is true. People could still hide behind their non-dual concepts and the format was encouraging that.  So I changed things and started inviting people to come up to the front to have a more intimate dialogue with me. Since I made that change, I have found that the meetings are never the same. Although often people are a little afraid to come up at first, once they relax into being there with me, we can have a very real, intimate dialogue, which is perfectly tailored to where they are at. For people who are genuinely searching, this seems to really meet them where they are at, rather than just keeping things at a safe conceptual level. I am no longer interested in talking around and about non-duality. This is simply another way to escape and avoid what we are really searching for.

 

NDM: So in these dialogues, what do you actually do?

Unmani: Every dialogue is different and unique. It really depends what the person comes to the front with. Some people come with a particular question and some people don’t have anything prepared. Sometimes we launch into unraveling someone’s question and sometimes we just sit there and look at each other. Sometimes we laugh and sometimes we cry. Often someone will come up with a particular question and I find that I am not interested in simply giving them a non-dual answer, but instead we investigate what is really behind that question. I prefer that people recognize this themselves rather than simply believing what I tell them. Obviously though, sometimes it can be a little frustrating or confronting for people who expect a conceptual answer to their question… Sometimes it can be scary for people. Sometimes it can trigger old fears, emotions. It’s really getting to the heart of the matter. To the root of it. What are you really afraid of? What are you running from? What are you longing for? It is all the same thing and its there in every question that people come up with. It’s really the root of it. So I'm not very interested in just answering someone's conceptual questions, but really looking where that question is really coming from. I guess it is also an energetic dance that happens. I can not really explain this in words. But somehow behind the whole dialogue in words, there is also an energetic meeting that points to the same recognition as the words do.

NDM: Ok so, people use this word “enlightenment”, traditionally meaning to know. Even this word Buddi or Buddha derives from a Sanskrit word budh means to know. (Buddhi being the part of mind responsible for discrimination, judgment, also intuition, perhaps nearest equated to the intellect in Western usage.)  So what would be the difference with you and someone who is searching?

Unmani: Well in one sense, ultimately there's no difference, And yet of course, we cant just leave it at that because in the play of experience, there does seem to be a difference. The main difference I would say is the realization that thought doesn't mean anything about who I am. That is the main thing, because when you are searching, you think that everything that thought says means that there is something wrong with me or something missing, or something I need, something I need to change, or fix or do and some effort is needed. As if there is some way of controlling the experience. My life, and all of that thinking is taken to mean something about me. It is always referred back to who I think I am. And all of that is a way of avoiding feeling - avoiding feeling of pain, suffering, fear, raw discomfort. Searching is a way of avoiding that.

In recognizing who I am, there is also a seeing that thought does not mean anything about me. There is no way of avoiding feeling discomfort because it is all happening out of control. There is no me in here that can control what happens. And that is the surrender - seeing that there is no one to control anything. So if I were to say there was a difference, then it is in believing that thought means something. 

But what I also notice is that it doesn't just stop. As in, you don't just recognise this and have one realization and that's it, you've arrived. It's a never-ending losing. Anyone who says that they have arrived at any point, whether we call it enlightenment, awakening or whatever, is just believing that thoughts mean something about 'me' again. Because if I say I have arrived at this point of enlightenment, I am now enlightened, then I'm again buying into a thought. It is a continual losing, a continual seeing thought for what it is. A continual feeling the raw aliveness of what ever is happening right now. And it’s often uncomfortable, but that's being alive.

NDM: Ok so with what ever arises, how has this realization changed you on a day to day level, in terms of your personality, your proclivities, desires or aversions, tendencies? Have any of this changed over the years? For example, how were you before you met Dolano? How long ago was that by the way?

Unmani: I think it was probably about 12 years ago. Something like that. I've lost count.

NDM: Ok, how would you say you have changed from that point in time to now? In 12 years?

Unmani: In one way its very difficult to say because I rely on memory to compare how it was then and my memory is a bit unreliable. (laughs)

One thing I have noticed is very different is actually that memory is not taken to be that important anymore. And therefore it doesn't seem to record events in the same way as it did because it doesn't seem to be that important. Obviously I do remember stuff. But not very well I guess. So all of this from now is relying on a not very good memory.

NDM: And the reason being is that because you are always living in the moment, as you said it's just life, moment to moment so nothing is sticking like it did before?

Unmani: Yeah that would be one of the main differences that there is no one that is believed to be living in time, with a history or with a future. So what ever happens doesn't happen to me. And it doesn't happen in time. It’s not referenced back to me and what it means to me. It's just happening.  So now we are just sitting here having this conversation and I have no idea what it means and who it’s happening to. (laughter)

But I guess there are other things. I remember after being with Dolano that certain major chunks of beliefs were seen for what they were. And those big chunks were seen through quite quickly in the time after being with Dolano. Then in the several years since then, there have been smaller bits, and occasionally bigger bits. So it’s gotten more subtle.

One of the big chunks after being with Dolano, was that recognizing I have no parents. And that was quite a big one for me at the time, because there was a feeling of being part of a family. I felt that somehow I belonged to this family. Then I really saw that I don't have any parents. That was quite a big chunk because all the conditioning that came from believing that I was someone who was part of that family, was seen that it actually has nothing to do with me.

NDM: Immediately with that realization?

Unmani: Well with that realization, the importance of that conditioning was seen for what it was. For example, when you have a reaction to something that your parents do, you have that reaction because it feels really important. Somehow you are defending your self in a way that it feels really important. You really care about it.

(Laughter)

And that caring about it fell away. Pretty immediately even though I wasn't actually with my parents at the time.  So I couldn't really couldn't test that out straight away. I only saw them about a year and a half later. But definitely when I saw them and I was actually living with them, it was very different. In fact not only was it with my parents, but in relationships with friends or people close to me. Its been the same thing, almost a feeling that I don't care about them.  That sounds heartless and cold, but it’s not at all. Actually it only sounds heartless in comparison to the old conditioning of needing and, protecting and defending myself. But actually this way of seeing my parents was not without absolute love. Such love that I don't need to hold onto them, or to defend myself with them. Since then there has been much more freedom in our relationship. And with that freedom is the love - real love without it being referenced back to ‘me’ all the time.

NDM: How did your friends react to this? For example when you were going through this, how did they look at you?

Unmani: Well I wasn't with them. I was in India and then I was in Australia, I was away for years, making new friends all the time. So it was only some years later when I got back to England, my parents treated me the same way they had always had. I guess they saw a change in me. They saw that there was something that was deeply relaxed in me that hadn't been like that before. They saw that I wasn't trying to push anything onto them. I wasn't trying to change them, or to persuade them to believe anything which I had done in the past.

Unmani: Yeah for sure. When I was meditating, reading various books, I would try to persuade my parents that they should be different in some way. And of course they hated that. They listened to some of it, but no one likes to be persuaded to be different. Having something pushed on them in some way made them only resist it. So when they saw that there was this deeper relaxed nature in me. And I was not really into speaking about it. This was before I started doing meetings.  They actually started asking me themselves. And I was only very reluctant to speak about it, because I had experienced how speaking about it is a very delicate thing. Speaking about it, is just regurgitating words and concepts, and it is not it at all.  There is a way of pointing to this that is way beyond the words. But when I came back from traveling in Australia, back to England to my family, I wasn't ready to do that. In fact it took quite some time after that before I was ready to point to it in a way that was beyond words. So yeah, they noticed a difference and I guess they have also relaxed much more. If I look back at how they were when I was growing up, they are much more open, relaxed, and free-er themselves, than they were.

NDM: And did you find that did your friends understand you when you came back from India? Or did they find it confusing.  Did you feel a need to communicate this with your friends?

Unmani: Well again, I had been away for years, so I did not have many friends, that why I said. I used to go to Tony Parsons meetings to meet like-minded friends. Because I left England when I was just 18. And I came back when I was probably when I was in my, early 30s I think. So a long time had gone by so it was really meeting new friends.  I am still in touch with a couple of old school friends who, although we have very different lives, are open-minded enough to relate somewhat to what I do and how I live.

NDM: The nest question is about your teaching. How did you begin sharing this with other people, doing meetings? Did it begin naturally or did you one day decide to go out there and do meetings. How did that occur exactly?

Unmani: Well I was writing, it started with the writing. I was just writing for myself and I didn't think of publishing it or anything. I just had a desire to express. I had always loved writing. I had been writing quite a lot and after a while I shared some of it with Nathan Gill and he suggested that I should get it published. So that was quite a big step for me. So that was my first book, ‘I am Life itself’. It took some months for it to be published and during that time, several people encouraged me to start speaking. I just felt like I really had nothing to say. I was also very wary of putting it into words in case it just came out in some kind of conceptual way. I didn't want to cheapen it in that way. I thought ‘I have nothing to say. I don't know anything’. One friend said to me, when I what I was thinking, ‘well, don’t say anything then’. Well, I knew I could do that! An encouraging friend set up the first meeting in her lounge, and then a few friends publicized the fact that I was doing it. It was very small, the first meeting only 6 people or something. And it felt really strange to be the one sitting at the front of the room. I didn't say anything for ages. Well, it felt like ages anyway. I don't know how long it was really, and then somehow I just started speaking. I have no idea how. I wasn't thinking about anything. It just started and it was shocking. (Laughter) I was shocked, ‘who's that coming from?’ (Laughs) And once it started, it just flowed and it just felt really right to be doing that. Although this sounds a bit corny, it felt like what I was meant to do. What I was made for. It felt really right.

And then it just evolved. In that first meeting I was very nervous, quite shy. But since then the courage has grown, the confidence has grown. Even though I go to lots of different places with much bigger audiences, and even though this body sometimes gets quite nervous, the heart will race and the tummy churns, (laughs) and yet there is an absolute relaxation with it. I’ve always been really shy as a personality. I would never speak out in public. In fact even speaking to more than one other person together, was always really scary to me.

I trained as a primary school teacher in England for a year and I hated it. It was torture. Having to speak in front of a classroom of children and to teach something. I would forget my words, forget what I was teaching. I was so nervous I couldn't do it. But this is completely different. It’s not me that's doing it. I don't have to know anything. I don't have to prepare anything. I'm not taking any credit for it or any blame for it. Its simply a describing and responding to what is here.

NDM: So when you do these meetings, is it a question and answer format mostly? Does somebody come up to you and ask you a question, or do you just talk about whatever arises?

Unmani: Usually, when its a short meeting, a couple of hours, I give some kind of introduction,  and then invite people to come up to the front, I have another chair at the front, and we have a dialogue. I point to this, who they are, who I am, in lots of ways and one of those ways is through the eyes. This seems to me a very direct way of pointing to this. Just looking into each others eyes, not for any practice. It is just a very relaxed gentle looking that happens naturally or not.  People are often very scared of holding eye contact and will look away, because it can bring up a lot of fear and also a lot of longing. There is no hiding in the eyes.

NDM: When you are doing this, have people had epiphanies, realizations that what you are pointing to in these meetings that have stuck with them, that have lasted?

Unmani: Yes, many. Particularly in retreats because in retreats it gets much deeper. When I do a week long retreat where everyday we are pointing to this, everyday, things come up. Thoughts questions come up that try to doubt, or to undermine this recognition, and those thoughts themselves are undermined each time. So yes, people have definitely had major life changes and break-throughs in those retreats.

NDM: Do they write to you later on, after the retreats? Do you stay in contact with these people that go to these retreats?

Unmani: Yes as much as possible.  You know, if they come from a different country, its not always possible, but when I'm in those countries, then I love to see some of those people who have been on past retreats.  For example several of the people who came to the recent retreat in Portugal came to visit me at the meetings in Amsterdam. They come just to say hi, to have another little reminder. There's a very sweet little community that builds up somehow and I like to encourage that. Also about half the people at the retreat in Portugal had come to retreats I have done before. It is great that people keep in touch with each other as a general support, because they are not that many people in their daily lives with whom they can be that open and honest. It can be difficult to really reveal and share what is real for them in their work life or family life. Its nice that they can keep in touch. I also do a reunion retreat once a year. This is a weekend, where all the people who have done retreats with me before, can come together for a weekend. This weekend is such a beautiful opportunity to go a lot deeper and also to have a lot of fun together.

NDM: So, thinking about methods, on the retreats, the reason for the playfulness is to break through some of the conditionings, maybe release some of the anxiety or tensions?

Unmani: Well, its actually amazing what play can do. It amazes me because its not necessarily a thought out method. Its just through trying something, or just having a feeling that yeah, this feels right with this group. And then seeing what happens is just mind-blowing. What happens and how it triggers things that I would not have thought would be possible. It’s a safe space for people to explore their old patterns and then to start to laugh at themselves, which is the most important thing. To really see through the beliefs that I have had about how serious I am, how important I am…

NDM: So do they take themselves so seriously?

Unmani: Yeah, we are all just like children, just playing at being serious, at being grown up. It is all just play really.  So in retreats, usually the first few days are pretty serious, as in, looking at the deeper questions in quite an intense way. But about half way through the retreat, things start to change and lighten up in the group generally. In the evenings we do more playful things, or creative and artistic things, but all in a very playful and sometimes very ridiculous way. I don't know if you have seen some of the photos on Facebook?

NDM: Yes I have.

Unmani: At the last retreat we dressed up in crazy outfits, or played twister, painted each other and created a big group painting, and all kinds of crazy stuff.

NDM: So what that would do then is take down the masks, the personas would be striped away. All the stuff that has been accumulated over the years, would that fall away in those situations?  It’s like being reverted to being a child again in some ways. Would that be the intention for it?

Unmani: Yeah, absolutely. So people can see how they have believed that something about themselves is important, or serious or they believe that they really care about something. Then seeing, through play, how that belief is just a pretense. Its a kind of letting down the boundaries, the barriers, relaxing.  We all love to play, we are just scared. We are scared of revealing that wanting to play, that silliness, just being ridiculous. Usually in life it is not safe to do that. So in a retreat I do what I can to create a safe environment within the group so that everybody feels safe together.  So that the group dynamic feels safe enough to let down some of those boundaries.

NDM: So its just letting down all of the guards?

Unmani: Yes and starting with that recognition of who I am. We start with really investigating who I really am.  And that really is the only real safety net. So while you think that you are someone that needs to be perfected, or needs to be grown-up or serious, important, or whatever it is, that means that you can’t really let down your guard. In recognizing who you are, you recognize that all of those issues, all of those beliefs, just appear in that and don't mean anything about who I really am. Who I really am does not need any protecting or perfecting. So this is the real way that people feel more comfortable to let their guards down during retreats, because they start to recognize the only real safety net of their true nature.  Then they are free to slowly, start to unravel and relax into that.

NDM: The next question is what happens when they leave the retreat and go back into their normal lives. Does all this stuff go back into place for most people?  The guards go up, the defense mechanisms go back up, they take on their identities again of being a CEO or what ever it is?

Unmani: Obviously the experience of a retreat is quite different to normal life but I do try as much as I can, to make it as down to earth as possible, so the transition back to ‘normal life’, isn't as great. If you did a retreat where it was somehow very, very peaceful and nothing was being disturbed, then going back to normal life would be much more of a change. But in these retreats, they are often being disturbed and having to face being disturbed, (Laughs) so going back to normal life is not so different. Although by end of the retreat they are usually having so much fun that going back to work is a bit of a downer in comparison! Inevitably things do kind of creep back in, but what I have heard from various people is that when those old habits do kind of creep back in, they are seen for what they are. So that's the difference. They are seen with a bit more awareness. They are able to laugh at themselves with all of this. For example, there was one guy who works as an engineer, and he came originally came to a meeting a couple of years ago. We had a conversation and I asked him what he does for a living, and in the retreat after that I teased him about being so serious about being an engineer. (Laughter) I got him to exaggerate the role of the engineer to the point where it was ridiculous, that he could laugh at himself.  Then  when he went back into his work life, being a serious engineer he could see how he was playing just like a child, pretending to be a serious engineer.

NDM: You have also created a gap, created a distance by doing that, interrupted his pattern of behavior?

Unmani: Yes

NDM: What about private talks, when people come to you on the side and they have issues and whatever. Do you talk to them about that? About the various things that arise in the retreats? I imagine that when you do that, a lot of other things can sometimes arise, maybe issues from the past, uncomfortable feelings?

Unmani: Yes fear.

NDM: Yes. How do you deal with that when that happens?

Unmani: Yes, well if I'm not, for example, a serious engineer, then who the hell am I?

NDM: Exactly. (Laughter)

Unmani: That’s why we start with recognizing who I really am, so that it is safe enough to realize that I am not the identity that I have taken on. Then they know that they don’t need to replace it with another identity. Fear can still come up of course.

NDM: So then you would address that on the side with the person.  Would you just talk to them about it?

Unmani: Because the format of the meetings are quite intimate I don't usually need to have a private dialogue with people because we have the dialogue in the meetings, in the group. So the rest of the group becomes like a little family that holds each other. As each person is at the front of the room having a very intimate dialogue, sharing their deepest darkest stuff.

NDM: They actually do that in the group? They delve into all their stuff.

Unmani: We don't get into analyzing it, but it certainly comes up because once you recognize who you are, then all of the old stuff, you might call it conditioning, beliefs or assumptions about who you are all comes up to be seen for what it is in the light of that recognition. All the most painful, the most frightening stuff can come up, because believing you are someone is a  way of avoiding looking at it and feeling it.

NDM: Yes.

Unmani: In the last retreat I did in Portugal, the first few days was relatively calm, then half way through, people started to experience, to look at that more painful stuff. And there was a lot of anger expressed, whether they go into the story of it, is not really the point, although sometimes a little bit of their story is necessary. But a lot of just shouting, clenching fists, shaking, jumping up and down, just moving the energy of that anger, or fear or pain, tears. And it is all held in that safety net of who I really am, so that it's ok to express it, to feel it, and it doesn't mean anything about me. Its ok to be there, to be felt, to just pass just like anything else. We are so used to holding onto it and making it mean something about me, that it becomes this big drama, this big issue that we own.  But actually it’s ok, to just be felt, and sometimes to be expressed. Because it doesn't mean anything about me, it can just come and go, and then come back again, and then go again. It is always just ‘stuff’. Just ‘stuff’ that is felt. When it is not ‘my’ stuff,  it is not as frightening as we may have thought it was, because it doesn't mean anything about me.

NDM: So you keep in contact with people who do these retreats, just in case other stuff comes up. Like a month later or two months down the line.  So you would be there for them in case this happens?

Unmani: Well yes, at the end of the retreat I always say to people, feel free to email me and I will do my best to respond. Sometimes I do Skype conversations with people. People who have been really touched by a retreat, come again to another retreat. I’ve been doing these ones in Portugal for three years in a row now and about half of the group have been coming for about three years in a row. Each time it somehow goes a bit deeper for them.

NDM: And do you suggest anything else they should do while they are not on the retreat, when they go back into their life. Do you give them any kind of exercise or method, or way of dealing in the world, looking at the world?

Unmani; No because anything like that would be another way of avoiding, really feeling what's going on.

NDM: On the retreats, do you do any types of meditation, sitting meditation, walking meditation, anything like that?

Unmani: No practice at all, but we do have natural times of silence at most of the beginnings of the meetings. It starts with a period of silence and at times we sit with our eyes closed, but its not kind of any formal practice. We do all kinds of exercises that might trigger more stuff. For example sitting with a partner and touching each others hands in a very innocent way. Just feeling the sensation of touch. That can trigger a lot of stuff with some people. Some more than others. And then we talk about that. We share how it is, how it was. So not so much practices but little exercises.

NDM: So the primary intention of this retreat first is to deal with all these identity issues, believing that they are a separate person, is that how you would start?

Unmani: Yes.

NDM: And then you would see what arises, through the play and dealing with the fall out of that. I know you don't like to use the word method, but I do see some kind of a method in the way that you are doing it. (Laughs)

Unmani: Well I guess it’s not a method that I have formulated, or thought about. It’s not something that I decide ‘ok, I'm now going to put this method into practice. It is something that has kind of evolved very fluidly. I think the first retreat I tried one thing and I was like ‘wow’.  I was really surprised at how it seemed to trigger stuff and work with people. So I tried a bit more. and each retreat it has got even more crazy.

NDM: So then you would fine tune what ever you had been doing and seen that it worked, organized it into a schedule, like the first two days you would deal with the identity, the who am I question, then the serious stuff, then the fun part.

Unmani:  I guess that you could say its slowly becoming a method. (Laughs.)

NDM: (laughs). Yeah, that’s how it always starts. You will probably have an entire school based on it at some point all about this. (laughs)

Unmani: I guess so, that's how it starts. I resist calling it a method because it’s not something I'm holding in my mind. I'm checking physically all the time, ‘does it feel right to be doing this with this group?’, ‘what does this group need?’.  So it’s quite spontaneous.

For more info about Unmani and her retreats and meetings visit.

www.Die-to-Love.com