Mariana Caplan
Mariana Caplan, PhD, MFT, is a licensed psychotherapist, professor of yogic and transpersonal psychologies, and the author of seven books in the fields of psychology and spirituality, including, The Guru Question: The Perils and Awards of Choosing a Spiritual Teacher (Sounds True, 2011), Eyes Wide Open: Cultivating Discernment on the Spiritual Path (Sounds True, 2010), which won five national awards for best spiritual book of 2010, and the seminal Halfway Up the Mountain: the Error of Premature Claims to Enlightenment. She has spent 20 years researching cutting edge and controversial topics in Western Spirituality, and dialoguing with the great spiritual teachers, scholars, and luminaries of our time. She is a leading spiritual psychologist, using somatic approaches to psychotherapy to support spiritual practitioners and teachers with the process of healing trauma and moving towards psychospiritual integration, and working with the complex discernments that arise in the context of spiritual practice and in spiritual communities. She is an adjunct professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies and Naropa University, and the co-founder of The Center for World Spirituality. She has degrees cultural anthropology, counseling psychology, and contemporary spirituality, and is a teacher, lifelong practitioner, and lover of yoga philosophy and asana. Mariana resides in the San Francisco Bay Area where she has a private psychotherapy practice, and ecstatically enjoys her life as a new mom.
She has spent 20 years researching cutting edge and controversial topics in Western Spirituality, and dialoguing with the great spiritual teachers, scholars, and luminaries of our time. She is a leading spiritual psychologist, using somatic approaches to psychotherapy to support spiritual practitioners and teachers with the process of healing trauma and moving towards psychospiritual integration, and working with the complex discernments that arise in the context of spiritual practice and in spiritual communities.
She is an adjunct professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies and Naropa University, and the co-founder of The Center for World Spirituality. She has degrees cultural anthropology, counseling psychology, and contemporary spirituality, and is a teacher, lifelong practitioner, and lover of yoga philosophy and asana. Mariana resides in the San Francisco Bay Area where she has a private psychotherapy practice, and ecstatically enjoys her life as a new mom.
NDM: Maybe we can start with a background question.
Mariana Caplan: I was with my teacher, Lee Lozowick, for 16 years from the time I met him during a visit to India where he was visiting his teacher, the God-mad saint Yogi Ramsuratumar (yes, I met exactly one “saint” in all my years of seeking, spiritual journalism, etc.) until his death in November, 2010. For many years I lived on his ashram in Prescott, Arizona, and for many more years ran his groups in the San Francisco area. Later I lived more independently, focusing on my yoga and psychology studies and practice, but always with great reverence and loyalty to my teacher.
His methods were both highly disciplined and renunciate-like in terms of the demand for practice (regular meditation, continual service, constant chanting, inquiry, simple living) and also unconventional, like working through art projects, music groups, koan-like statements and directives. He was truly a unique man, and what I appreciate most about him is that he never let me down. Even when I would do, say, think, write things that were different from his approach or preference, he always backed me. He had no pride. I miss him!
NDM: Can you please tell me what inspired you to write the Guru question? Mariana Caplan: I was traveling in India researching a book on the great disciples of the famous gurus in India, and I was sitting on a balcony in Kanyakumari (South India) and realize that the issues that Western practitioners faced on the path were so distinct from the Indians, and that I needed to write for a Western audience, and articulate the complexities that happen in translating these traditions, particularly with respect to the Western psyche. So the earlier version of the book, which was then called Do You Need a Guru? was born, which was also my doctoral dissertation. Many years later Sounds True asked me to fully update the book, and there was so much more “water under the bridge” and so we have “The Guru Question.” NDM: You once said to Tami Simon that "the chances of awakening without a teacher are like the chances of getting pregnant without a partner." So are you saying its impossible? Mariana Caplan: No, not impossible. Actually, that was a quote that the late Fourth Way teacher, Robert Ennis, said to me. The thing is, any of the dogmatic, absolutist statements that we think on the path always prove to be untrue, because the path reveals itself to be less rigid, less certain, more complex than we thought. I think we all get softened by our practice, if we are practicing intelligently. So now I would say that it is definitely possible to awaken without a teacher, and in fact it happens all the time. In terms of integrating that awakening, into our bodies, into our psychology, into our lives, that is another story. I do think we all need help to see our blind-spots, and lots of intelligent feedback along the way.
NDM: Can you please tell me what inspired you to write the Guru question?
Mariana Caplan: I was traveling in India researching a book on the great disciples of the famous gurus in India, and I was sitting on a balcony in Kanyakumari (South India) and realize that the issues that Western practitioners faced on the path were so distinct from the Indians, and that I needed to write for a Western audience, and articulate the complexities that happen in translating these traditions, particularly with respect to the Western psyche. So the earlier version of the book, which was then called Do You Need a Guru? was born, which was also my doctoral dissertation. Many years later Sounds True asked me to fully update the book, and there was so much more “water under the bridge” and so we have “The Guru Question.”
NDM: You once said to Tami Simon that "the chances of awakening without a teacher are like the chances of getting pregnant without a partner." So are you saying its impossible?
Mariana Caplan: No, not impossible. Actually, that was a quote that the late Fourth Way teacher, Robert Ennis, said to me. The thing is, any of the dogmatic, absolutist statements that we think on the path always prove to be untrue, because the path reveals itself to be less rigid, less certain, more complex than we thought. I think we all get softened by our practice, if we are practicing intelligently. So now I would say that it is definitely possible to awaken without a teacher, and in fact it happens all the time. In terms of integrating that awakening, into our bodies, into our psychology, into our lives, that is another story. I do think we all need help to see our blind-spots, and lots of intelligent feedback along the way.
NDM: I read some where that Lee Lozowick was into "crazy wisdom". What are your thoughts on crazy wisdom and western teachers that use this as a method? Mariana Caplan: I think that like so many spiritual terms, “crazy wisdom” has been sensationalized, watered down, and often used as an excuse to act out of integrity. But that does not take away the great possibilities of crazy-wisdom teachings, any more than masses of people watering down and misunderstanding enlightenment takes away from the truth of Enlightenment itself. NDM: What about the "Stink of enlightenment?" What is this and how do you know is someone has this stink? Mariana Caplan: I think the stink, as considered from a contemporary perspective, is that there are many sophisticated techniques for nondual insight readily available these days, and that people are continually mistaking a flash of insight, or even many flashes of such insight over a long period of time, for enlightenment. All of that is just the very beginning of the path, not the end. How do we know someone has it? That’s a delicate question. For myself, I know who I want to hang out with and when I smell the spiritual gobbly-gook that I have no interest in. I am much more interested in integration. Where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. How that moment of enlightenment was helpful in becoming more intimate with one’s partner, or child. That gets exciting.
NDM: I read some where that Lee Lozowick was into "crazy wisdom". What are your thoughts on crazy wisdom and western teachers that use this as a method?
Mariana Caplan: I think that like so many spiritual terms, “crazy wisdom” has been sensationalized, watered down, and often used as an excuse to act out of integrity. But that does not take away the great possibilities of crazy-wisdom teachings, any more than masses of people watering down and misunderstanding enlightenment takes away from the truth of Enlightenment itself.
NDM: What about the "Stink of enlightenment?" What is this and how do you know is someone has this stink?
Mariana Caplan: I think the stink, as considered from a contemporary perspective, is that there are many sophisticated techniques for nondual insight readily available these days, and that people are continually mistaking a flash of insight, or even many flashes of such insight over a long period of time, for enlightenment. All of that is just the very beginning of the path, not the end. How do we know someone has it? That’s a delicate question. For myself, I know who I want to hang out with and when I smell the spiritual gobbly-gook that I have no interest in. I am much more interested in integration. Where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. How that moment of enlightenment was helpful in becoming more intimate with one’s partner, or child. That gets exciting.
Ken Wilber
NDM: Ken Wilber said something very interesting. "A schmuck before enlightenment, a schmuck after enlightenment'. What does this mean exactly and why is this and what can change this? Mariana Caplan: I like that! It means that enlightenment doesn’t automatically bear on all the conditioned structures of consciousness. Sometimes it just gives the ego a more sophisticated explanation and excuse not to work on oneself. What we can do is recognize this, and then continue to engage the labors of transforming the psyche, diligent practice, learning to grow up and be a good human being. NDM: What are your thoughts on non duality or neo advaita. That "there is no path, no karma, no dharma, no cause, nothing to do, you are already perfect just the way you are with all your flaws, so nothing needs to be changed"? Mariana Caplan: I think it is true, and boring, and misused, and not very practical. If we look at your question above, “thoughts on nonduality or neo-advaita” there is a contradiction right there. Neo-Advaita is not nonduality. Nonduality is nonduality. The traditional Advaita paths affirmed our essential perfection but always required ongoing practice, the guidance of a teacher, etc. Ramana Maharishi sat in two different caves on Mt. Arunachala integrating his realization for over 20 years! I think that kind of statement is a ticket for spiritual bypassing.
NDM: Ken Wilber said something very interesting. "A schmuck before enlightenment, a schmuck after enlightenment'. What does this mean exactly and why is this and what can change this?
Mariana Caplan: I like that! It means that enlightenment doesn’t automatically bear on all the conditioned structures of consciousness. Sometimes it just gives the ego a more sophisticated explanation and excuse not to work on oneself. What we can do is recognize this, and then continue to engage the labors of transforming the psyche, diligent practice, learning to grow up and be a good human being.
NDM: What are your thoughts on non duality or neo advaita. That "there is no path, no karma, no dharma, no cause, nothing to do, you are already perfect just the way you are with all your flaws, so nothing needs to be changed"?
Mariana Caplan: I think it is true, and boring, and misused, and not very practical. If we look at your question above, “thoughts on nonduality or neo-advaita” there is a contradiction right there. Neo-Advaita is not nonduality. Nonduality is nonduality. The traditional Advaita paths affirmed our essential perfection but always required ongoing practice, the guidance of a teacher, etc. Ramana Maharishi sat in two different caves on Mt. Arunachala integrating his realization for over 20 years! I think that kind of statement is a ticket for spiritual bypassing.
NDM: Some traditional Vedanta teachers say that the odds of finding a sat guru or much closer to wining the lottery. That you will get the teacher that you deserve based on karma and other factors. What are your thoughts on this? Mariana Caplan: Okay, but here we are saying above that there is no karma, no dharma, no teacher, and the next thing we hear is that finding a teacher is like winning the lottery. This sounds to me much closer to traditional Advaita teachings than some some of the jargon that is often articulated in the Neo-Vedanta approach. Of course it is determined by karma. “Deserving” is a more delicate question as people’s sense of deserving is often tied up with self-esteem. The chances of finding the great Satguru might be like winning the lottery, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t need the help of wise spiritual friends and teachers, at the very least, to guide us. NDM: The 8th century advaita sage Adi Shankara said that to even take up self inquiry you need certain qualifications. like discernment between what is real what is unreal, discrimination, having led multiple good pasts lives, and other requisites Do you need feel that one needs certain prerequisites to do self enquiry for example? Mariana Caplan: It would be really great if we had discernment, and a background of consistent practice and a good teacher. But life doesn’t seem to be that linear. If we could truly discern between the real and unreal, why would we need inquiry? Sometimes we need inquiry to help us discern, and we need life and its humbling experiences, to disillusion us from our projections onto inquiry and the spiritual path, to help us discern what is real from unreal. It is a continuous and ongoing process. To think we have reached the end goal is a great limitation on the path. The focus of my own practice is yoga – not just asana, but sutra, breath, study, the awakening of consciousness in the body. When we really enter into the yoga, for example, the yoga itself reveals to us the endlessness of the yoga. How does it do that? We keep practicing and the vastness just keeps getting more vast. You find yourself hanging out in streams of knowledge you never dreamed possible, and then you look within from there and discover you have only just begun. I love that. It is inspiring, and keeps me in my place, in a good way.
NDM: Some traditional Vedanta teachers say that the odds of finding a sat guru or much closer to wining the lottery. That you will get the teacher that you deserve based on karma and other factors. What are your thoughts on this?
Mariana Caplan: Okay, but here we are saying above that there is no karma, no dharma, no teacher, and the next thing we hear is that finding a teacher is like winning the lottery. This sounds to me much closer to traditional Advaita teachings than some some of the jargon that is often articulated in the Neo-Vedanta approach.
Of course it is determined by karma. “Deserving” is a more delicate question as people’s sense of deserving is often tied up with self-esteem. The chances of finding the great Satguru might be like winning the lottery, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t need the help of wise spiritual friends and teachers, at the very least, to guide us.
NDM: The 8th century advaita sage Adi Shankara said that to even take up self inquiry you need certain qualifications. like discernment between what is real what is unreal, discrimination, having led multiple good pasts lives, and other requisites Do you need feel that one needs certain prerequisites to do self enquiry for example?
Mariana Caplan: It would be really great if we had discernment, and a background of consistent practice and a good teacher. But life doesn’t seem to be that linear. If we could truly discern between the real and unreal, why would we need inquiry? Sometimes we need inquiry to help us discern, and we need life and its humbling experiences, to disillusion us from our projections onto inquiry and the spiritual path, to help us discern what is real from unreal. It is a continuous and ongoing process. To think we have reached the end goal is a great limitation on the path.
The focus of my own practice is yoga – not just asana, but sutra, breath, study, the awakening of consciousness in the body. When we really enter into the yoga, for example, the yoga itself reveals to us the endlessness of the yoga. How does it do that? We keep practicing and the vastness just keeps getting more vast. You find yourself hanging out in streams of knowledge you never dreamed possible, and then you look within from there and discover you have only just begun. I love that. It is inspiring, and keeps me in my place, in a good way.
Adi Shankara
NDM: What are your thoughts on charging for spiritual guidance, satsangs and on on as opposed to the traditional means dana. Mariana Caplan: I think it is okay. It is easy to criticize people for charging for teachings, but in fact everyone needs to make a living, and if that is what someone is giving all of their time to, I think it is okay to ask for compensation. I personally prefer that if people cannot pay, that there are options for reduced rates, work exchange, etc., so that nobody is excluded from the teachings. Having said that, we do find some difficulties in this. For example, when someone relies on their teachings to pay their mortgage, or take care of their kids, then there is more of a temptation to dilute the teachings to make them more marketable, or make concessions in terms of alliances that aren’t in one’s full integrity, in order to take care of one’s financial obligations. This is a really important area for teachers, and all of us, to look at. But there are no easy answers here. NDM: You said that "No matter what our level of practice is, the honest feedback of peers is an invaluable reality check. if we are willing to ask and willing to receive it". What has been your experience with giving feedback to your peers? Mariana Caplan: I have given and received very difficult feedback over the years. In terms of giving feedback, it is usually more effective when someone wants it, less effective when unsolicited. We are all a bit defensive to feedback, and we all need it. We have to cultivate the humility to receive it, and learn to sift through it wisely, without prematurely dismissing it, or taking on everybody’s criticism of it.
NDM: What are your thoughts on charging for spiritual guidance, satsangs and on on as opposed to the traditional means dana.
Mariana Caplan: I think it is okay. It is easy to criticize people for charging for teachings, but in fact everyone needs to make a living, and if that is what someone is giving all of their time to, I think it is okay to ask for compensation. I personally prefer that if people cannot pay, that there are options for reduced rates, work exchange, etc., so that nobody is excluded from the teachings.
Having said that, we do find some difficulties in this. For example, when someone relies on their teachings to pay their mortgage, or take care of their kids, then there is more of a temptation to dilute the teachings to make them more marketable, or make concessions in terms of alliances that aren’t in one’s full integrity, in order to take care of one’s financial obligations. This is a really important area for teachers, and all of us, to look at. But there are no easy answers here.
NDM: You said that "No matter what our level of practice is, the honest feedback of peers is an invaluable reality check. if we are willing to ask and willing to receive it".
What has been your experience with giving feedback to your peers?
Mariana Caplan: I have given and received very difficult feedback over the years. In terms of giving feedback, it is usually more effective when someone wants it, less effective when unsolicited. We are all a bit defensive to feedback, and we all need it. We have to cultivate the humility to receive it, and learn to sift through it wisely, without prematurely dismissing it, or taking on everybody’s criticism of it.
NDM: What is enlightenment in your yoga tradition? Mariana Caplan: It is endlessness. It is the endless opening to consciousness, and the endless integrating of that opening onto all the structures of our psyche, into the body, into the systems of life. And never stopping at “arrival”. I began this interview by mentioning Yogi Ramsuratkumar, my teacher’s teacher in India who died in 2001. Yogi Ramsuratkumar awakened when he was about 30 years old. He never stopped, and in fact his opening gained increasing velocity over the years. By the time I met him in his 70s, he was so porous that he was almost a figment of the imagination. His heart was so open that it was as if it didn’t have any skin on it – just a bleeding heart of compassion. He raised the bar so high by his presence, that previous notions of enlightenment turned to dust. For more info visit www.realspirituality.com
NDM: What is enlightenment in your yoga tradition?
Mariana Caplan: It is endlessness. It is the endless opening to consciousness, and the endless integrating of that opening onto all the structures of our psyche, into the body, into the systems of life. And never stopping at “arrival”. I began this interview by mentioning Yogi Ramsuratkumar, my teacher’s teacher in India who died in 2001. Yogi Ramsuratkumar awakened when he was about 30 years old. He never stopped, and in fact his opening gained increasing velocity over the years. By the time I met him in his 70s, he was so porous that he was almost a figment of the imagination. His heart was so open that it was as if it didn’t have any skin on it – just a bleeding heart of compassion. He raised the bar so high by his presence, that previous notions of enlightenment turned to dust.
For more info visit www.realspirituality.com
Yogi Ramsuratkumar