NDM: Can you please tell me a little about your background and how you became interested in non duality?

Beatriz Dantzler: I was born and raised in Sao Paulo, Brazil where I lived until my late teens. I was raised in a relatively religious (catholic) family. My mother went to catholic school and was practically raised by catholic nuns, so fear of God and mostly of the “purgatory,” added to my already existing agony. As a very young child I was very troubled by profound anguish and at times true despair in relation to human suffering, death and sickness. My childhood was difficult, full of fears, anxiety and confusion, even though I was healthy, had a loving family and had no major problems or concerns.  There was always a dark background of existential doom that permeated my activities as a child and an adolescent.

As a young adult, this anguish seemed to subside a bit for a while. I came to the US to learn English and ended up staying for many years. I graduated from Brigham Young University with a degree in psychology, and then went to CA (the Bay Area) to attend graduate school. I graduated with a MA degree in clinical psychology, finished my PhD course work in psychology and went back to Brazil to finish my dissertation there.

While in Brazil, I was surprised by a sudden, unprompted, unsolicited (so to speak) awakening. I had never been exposed nor had I ever had any interest in eastern philosophy or religion, so the concept of non duality was completely foreign to me. I can’t say that I was ever interested in non duality; it was more like it was interested in me (smile).

NDM: When you say “sudden, unprompted, unsolicited (so to speak) awakening"   What was going on in your life at this time?  For example, had you been sick or suffered some kind of shock, disappointment, loss or trauma?

Beatriz Dantzler: Yes, two significant events took place during the preceding months. The first was a sudden, horrendous pain that lead me to be taken to the hospital by ambulance. I had a kidney stone and was kept in the hospital for seven days in excruciating pain before undergoing surgery. I had a horrible reaction to morphine so I was forced to endure the pain with insufficient pain medication. This almost unbearable experience brought me in touch with not only my mortality but the fragility of this body and the ephemeral nature of life as I knew it.

The second took place shortly after. My mother fell ill and had to undergo a very critical surgery which was exploratory in nature and could have had devastating results. I found myself terrified by this most dreadful potential loss, which was to me lot worse than facing the loss of my own life. I was struck by overwhelming fear and hopelessness which brought me face to face with the inescapability of death and the powerlessness brought upon by having absolutely no control over anything at all.

These two events seemed to ripen me for the consequent soul searching that spontaneously begun to happen afterwards. Right then, my life begun to shift from enjoying my privileged financial, social, and physical situation back to the same existential despair I had experienced in childhood. The abundance of money, health, love, friends and family was no longer satisfactory, as it was again imbued with the so familiar and powerful existential anguish that accompanied and tormented me the first years of my life.

NDM: So at the point in your life, when your soul searching began. Where did you begin seeking first. Was it in some form of organized religion, books, meditation, yoga?

Beatriz Dantzler: I guess “spontaneous soul searching” was not the correct choice of words. There was no seeking (so to speak). There was only a sequence of unplanned events that took place while this profound dissatisfaction with life grew stronger and stronger. My attention naturally turned inwards and the lack of enjoyment involving the world of objects became the foreground of my experience.

This profound dissatisfaction culminated in a deep desire for death. One day I woke up overwhelmed by a sincere and humble lack of interest in living and I asked the only God I knew to please take my life. I knew in my heart that there was no possibility whatsoever of ever understanding the purpose and meaning of this life, and up till then nothing had been satisfying. I knew I could not find God. I had no hopes, no beliefs…only the desire to die, so I begged God to take my life.

NDM: What happened when you asked God to take your life?

Beatriz Dantzler: Even though it was a Wednesday, I started driving to my country home, where I spent most of my weekends. Half way there I saw a sign I had never noticed before that said “Buddhist Temple” and I followed this curvy little road that took me to a huge gate that opened up as soon as I pulled up to it. A security guard came out and pointed me in the direction of the visitors’ parking lot. I had no idea Wednesdays were visiting days but he assumed I did.

The temple was on the top of a hill and as I walked up, I was perplexed by this most unfamiliar, strange experience. I was particularly taken by the magnificent architecture, the angry, evil looking statues and the strong smell of incense. When I got to the top, there wasn’t a living soul in view, until this Brazilian older gentleman came out of a room and started walking toward me. He asked me to join him for some coffee and we both went into the cafeteria where we sat down.

As we started talking, I told him I was writing my doctoral dissertation in Brazil but planned on returning to the US soon.  He got very excited and after explaining what sutras were, he told me that he was the temple’s translator and that he had just finished a couple of English-Portuguese translations. He proceeded to asked me if I would mind editing them for him. I said I would and followed him upstairs so he could make a copy of them to give me.  On our way up we ran into the abbess (a bald Chinese woman wearing a brown robe) who invited me (in broken English) to stay for lunch.

The lunch ceremony was so moving to me that during the chant I could barely contain my tears, as I sat in silence with all of the monks and nuns, mesmerized by the beauty and uniqueness of such a bizarre incident. After lunch I asked the man what kind of a temple that was, and he told me it was a Ch’an monastery. I picked up the sutras, exchanged phone numbers with the nice man and left.

I went home and immediately started reading the sutras. The first one was “The Sutra of Hui Neng” or the “Platform Sutra” and the second was “The Diamond Sutra.” As I begun reading the first one, looking for grammar and translation errors, I was struck by this blissful tranquility and noticed that the words were alive in me. I proceeded to read the English versions, forgetting completely my editing duty. When I got to the “Diamond Sutra” I was in utter ecstasy, taken by this immense joy and unspeakable bliss. Insights started to happen sequentially and there was nothing but peace, joy and beauty.

I remember looking out my bedroom window at the puffy white clouds and melting down in tears of gratitude and joy, in awe of such miraculous beauty! The distant barking of a dog, a breeze that hit my face, the coolness of water…everything was a miracle!

For a few months, maybe two, I was in this “state” of profound bliss and ecstasy. It was at first completely debilitating because at times it would become almost unbearable, causing periods of intense crying and periods of outrageous laughter at the simplicity of it all! Luckily (if one can say that) the universe conspired to perfectly accommodate what was happening. I was in this country home alone with my dogs and even though the maids lived in the same property they had a separate house and did not make contact unless I requested, which I didn’t.

One day, my helper Ana showed up at the door (after hearing me laughing hysterically) timidly knocking and saying: “Are you ok?” I opened the door and replied: “Yes, I am… and so are you, dear Ana! All is well!!! All is well…” as tears of joy rolled down my face. The poor woman, after receiving an unsolicited hug (which was uncharacteristic of our relationship) went to call my parents to tell them that I seemed to need help and that I did not seem to be eating or sleeping. She also told them that it appeared as though I was on drugs or had gone mad.

I went back to the city for a few days, desperately attempting to get my parents and a few close friends and family to understand what was happening to me. I forced them into reading the same sutras, described my experience and insights, but they were unanimously certain that I was undergoing psychiatric problems.

I went back to the country home, where I remained alone and quiet for another month, maybe. The “state” persisted although it is difficult to recall or pinpoint the degree of clarity at a particular moment in time. All I know is that clarity seemed to gradually increase as insights continued to sprout, culminating with the sudden realization. It was as if a faucet of dirty, muddy water slowly became clearer and clearer, until there was no vestige of the mud, the water or the faucet.

NDM: When you said that " I was in utter ecstasy, taken by this immense joy and unspeakable bliss. Insights started to happen sequentially and there was nothing but peace, joy and beauty."Can you please tell me more about these insights?

Beatriz Dantzler: Yes, these insights were “aha” moments. The alive words of the sutras seemed to snowball in and as my direct experience, so questions and answers would appear effortlessly and resolve themselves in me, non-conceptually. It was a splendid show to watch, as at this point there was still an observer, an enjoyer of this marvelous miracle taking place naturally, of its own will.

I would for instance, spontaneously inquire into the nature of polarities and the ultimate inexistence of the pair of opposites would reveal itself and fade away.  The mechanism of thoughts linking up as present past and future would reveal itself and dissolve into nothingness. Things such as attachment, desire, emotions would come out of nothing, show their true face and go back to nothing, resolved and leaving no trace. There was no coherent order to it. It was just a fresh and natural spectacle of everything pointing to the ultimate, manifesting and finding resolution back in and as IT.

NDM: So what happened next? Did you take more of an interest in Chan Buddhism as a result of this?  Did you begin to meditate in any sort of way?

Beatriz Dantzler: Well, one day when I was returning home from the grocery store, the radiance and impeccable vividness of the essence suddenly revealed itself in its brilliance. I finally realized that I had never not been, that there was no time, no birth, no death, no suffering and no I. I realized that there was no recipient of all these imaginary things.  The ultimate freedom, the ultimate relief had been right in front of me all along and I had been walking around dead, unable to see it, believing I was the inert, separate and dead body.

No, there was no interest in anything at all as there was no recipient of any interest, no subject of any action. There was just life, no one in a state of bliss, no one looking, no I present, just beingness being as it had always been the case. The sutras had done their job and had been left behind long ago; Truth, Reality had nothing to do with Ch’an Buddhism or meditation.

NDM: At some point did you speak with  any kind of teacher about these insights of yours or feel that parts of the jigsaw puzzle were still missing?

Beatriz Dantzler: Yes, but not at this point. The realization was profound and I lived without the filter of mind form many months before the seeming return of mind, which cropped up unexpectedly and with a vengeance. When the residues of ignorance apparently returned I did seek desperately, staying at the monastery for a couple of years and later as well, after returning to the US.

NDM: So was this a Chan monastery and can you please tell me what you did there exactly?

Beatriz Dantzler: Yes it was. I was asked by the abbess to teach psychology at the monastery’s free university to those preparing to be monks and nuns. I also translated Mahayana sutras and helped with retreats, simultaneous translations and general things such teaching English to the Chinese nuns and monks, taking them to the airport, to the doctor, etc.  A big chunk of my time was spent at the library of the monastery, where there was an abundance of books I would have had no access to otherwise.

NDM: What about sitting meditation or other forms of moving meditation or mindfulness practice?

Beatriz Dantzler: Yes, I practiced Vipassana meditation regularly and would often do silent (meditation) retreats.

 NDM:. By vipassana do you mean very traditional vipassana as with Mahāsi Sayādaw method? 

 Beatriz Dantzler: By Vipassana I meant observation-based, self-exploratory meditation. I mostly followed the guidance of the monk who was in charge of leading it. And when I sat on my own, I just sat. I am afraid I don’t know enough about the different types of meditation.

NDM: What about jhana, have you practiced this at all?

Beatriz Dantzler: I don’t think so.

NDM:  How did this vipassana practice help you with the "mind" conditioning's coming back in after these initial insights?

Beatriz Dantzler: It helped by yielding a decrease in disturbance and by preventing the mind from being troubled easily and repeatedly. I must say, however, that for many reasons, sitting meditation was not something I have ever focused too much on.

NDM: After leaving the monastery Did you ever look into neo advaita or traditional Vedanta or speak with anyone about this

Beatriz Dantzler: For almost three years at the monastery I had very little outside contact and almost no internet access. Every attempt I had made to talk about what had happened with anyone had so far been in vain. So when I arrived in the US, coming directly from the monastery I had accepted my fate of keeping “that” to myself. I had no choice but to be content with "eating the crumbs that fell from the great masters' tables" which brought me great peace and joy, so during my first week here I ordered one of my favorite books: “The Zen Teaching of Huang Po.”

Amazon made a mistake and sent me a book by Adyashanti: “Emptiness Dancing.” It was an enormous relief to know that others in the modern day shared my experience. I listened to some of his tapes and since he was not available I contacted a few people that were considered teachers but had very unsatisfying exchanges. Two of them were actually very unsettling, the other was just insignificant.

The seeking suddenly stopped and I was no longer moved to contact anyone, to read or to meditate. Six months later I sent a couple of private e-mails to Francis Lucille, and a couple of knots were untied as a result of two very skillful, spot on, almost monosyllabic answers from him. This was the only contact I have had with a living teacher.

NDM: When you say that two of these teachers were unsettling, what was unsettling about them for example. Was it their teaching style, method that they used?  Were they both neo advaita by the way?

Beatriz Dantzler: When I said that the exchanges were unsettling I was alluding to my own expectations about this encounter not being one of a social nature.

I am not quite certain about what the term “neo-advaita” encompasses but I would risk saying that one held a traditional stance and the other didn’t

NDM; So did one of these teachers make this exchange of an inappropriate social nature of some kind or was this harmless?  To not put too fine a point on it, did he violate his Buddhist precepts so to speak, did this cause you some grief?

Beatriz Dantzler: Any interaction governed by or left at the mercy of fears and desires is doomed to be helplessly locked into the pleasure-pain cycle. The particular exchanges in focus were replete with vestiges of ignorance from both sides as these “teachers” were equally imprisoned and hardly free from being pushed around by their own share of “samskaras.” So yes, there was harm; and yes, there was grief.

Even though there is a proclivity to refrain from finger pointing and a pull towards attributing this to perfectly unfolding fate (for obvious reasons) it is imperative to emphasize the responsibility involved in assuming a position of perceived power. Reciprocity in relationships is inescapable, so true help (so to speak) can only be offered or received when one of the parties has been set free from the fetters of conditioned behavior.

Discussing such a delicate matter publicly deserves a thorough and responsible assessment of the usefulness of diving into potentially fruitless details. This, however, will not preclude me from voicing loudly and clearly that there is enormous accountability surrounding the acceptance of others’ deferment to one’s superior knowledge when overtly or covertly attempting to occupy the sacred seat of a spiritual authority.  

NDM; When you say “I am not quite certain about what the term “neo-advaita” encompasses”

A traditional Vedanta teacher named Dennis Waite has book on this called Enlightenment, Path through the Jungle that explains this in detail.

This neo term not only applies to Vedanta but also with "neo Buddhism".    In Buddha’s time he often referred to them as nihilists and dangerous heretics (uccheda-ditthi) because they distorted and misunderstood his teachings and disbelieved in karma,  "two truths" dharma  and much more.

Nagajuna also later warned about this. He said,  

"The Dharma taught by Buddha's perfectly relies on two truths: (dvayasatya)the ambiguous truths of the world and the truths of the sublime meaning.

Those who do not understand the division into two truths, cannot understand the profound reality of the Buddha’s teaching.

Without relying on conventions, the sublime meaning cannot be taught. Without understanding the sublime meaning, one will not attain nirvana.

If their view of emptiness is wrong, those of little intelligence will be hurt. Like handling a snake in the wrong way, or casting a spell in the wrong way."

Tim Conway also has an article on neo advaita.  Please see here.  www.enlightened-spirituality.org/neo-advaita.html

What are your thoughts on this?

Beatriz Dantzler: I didn’t mean to give the impression of being completely unacquainted with the term neo-advaita, it is not the case; although I am truly appreciative of the wonderful texts you have kindly presented. I guess my previous answer  was a less than skillful (though not intentional) attempt to stir away from indulging in a perhaps erroneous or potentially futile categorization of any sort, as it specifically relates to my first unproductive (so to speak) interactions.

My thoughts on this do not differ from those already beautifully and articulately expressed by many.  As a matter of fact, anything I say will most certainly pale before such perspicacious and upright texts such as the ones you shared, including the one by the incisive and virtuous Timothy Conway.

I do, however, wish to convey the known fact that too many give blind credence to the fashionable fever in modern non-dual circles associated with spiritual bypassing. Along with that, the remiss, premature and indiscriminate utilization of absolute speech, utterly denying human experience, seems to have treacherously become the norm.

At the expense of much grief and sorrow, there are those who mercilessly derive self-gratification, financial gain or self-aggrandizement from their encounters with the truly vulnerable and truly gullible spiritual seeker. There seems to be a hidden code of casual imperviousness to any kind of reprimand or consequence that too straightforwardly excuses the incongruous behavior of the “enlightened.” Justifications for the damage caused by self-elected “spiritual authorities” seem to be abundantly, conveniently and too frequently expressed, especially by those pretending to look down on the less fortunate from their fictitious royal thrones of illumination.

NDM: Do you feel that as long as one is still imprisoned by samskaras, one should not teach this? 

Beatriz Dantzler: Yes.

NDM: Should all teachers be tested in some way to see if they still have these samskaras?

Beatriz Dantzler: One does not have to test an orange tree to confirm that it is in fact an orange tree. By the oranges it bears, it is recognized as such.

NDM: What you think are the karmic consequences for vasana laden advaita teachers like this. Do you think they will end up in one of the six realms of samsara for example?   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desire_realm

Beatriz Dantzler: I am afraid that any speculation I could offer on this would be inapplicable, irrelevant and inaccurate. I am moved, however to say this:

“The wise hurt no one and always control their bodies.” Dhammapada.