NDM:
Why do you say that this question will not
allow someone to go and look for a teacher or an
external guru of some kind? Many others have
asked this same question and then have left for India
for example and asked help from someone like
Nisargadatta Maharaj?
Were you able to do this enquiry alone, without
anyone's guidance?
Tarun Sardana: See, if the question really
strucks, it takes all the attention and so it
doesn't give much room to do anything else. When
this question arrives, it also brings with it
all the
necessary means. And you are right, the means
could be guru, books, or sleepless nights. It
could be anything and is different for everyone.
However, all these means will not give an answer
to this question but would rather keep sending
the mind back to the question. In
my case as well the same thing happened, the
existence always guided the mind through
constant enquiry.
NDM: So
how did you do this self enquiry? Did you meditate
on this question? Sit, or other means?
Tarun Sardana:
My
upbringing has happened in a very spiritual family.
So from childhood I was already into lot of prayers
and hours of meditation. However, the enquiry
reversed the attention from meditation to the meditator. And once it moves to the meditator, it
gives you sleepless nights :-) One will keep sitting
looking within to see who is this 'I' for which one
is doing everything.
NDM: When you say the switch moves from the
attention being on the meditation to the meditator,
what was it that brought about this shift ?
Was it
the meditation itself? Was there an opening, a
glimpse of some kind or an experience? What happened
exactly and how long did this take?
Tarun Sardana: John,
following was the answer I gave in one of the
interviews to a very similar question. See, if
this helps and throws some light on your
question.
"My Grand Ma and my mother have always
been associated with Satsangs.
Therefore, prayers, chanting have been a
regular routine of our daily lives. My
grand ma used to read a lot of
scriptures and narrate various stories
of devotion and love towards that
Almighty to us. So there was always an
inner urge, a very strong one in fact to
know the Supreme and to always be in HIS
shelter. I used to spend hours just
sitting and contemplating on the
‘UNKNOWN’. I spent years doing that!
There were times when I just stopped
talking to my friends and family and
used to spend most of my time in
solitude. There were various spiritual
experiences that built my faith in HIM
stronger and stronger each time.
However, there was something that was
always bothering me. Despite those
experiences, I often encountered
feelings of anger, hatred, or desire.
This used to really bother me and I used
to question the Almighty that when I
have surrendered before you, it becomes
your responsibility to protect me from
these vices. Why is it happening
repeatedly? I was becoming restless day
by day. I was in UAE during that time
and as I had limited access to
scriptures, I had at home; therefore I
used to spend most of my time reading
scriptures online. It was one of those
evenings when I came across an article
with someone’s photograph next to it.
The moment I saw a photograph, I closed
that page immediately as I am a strong
disbeliever of a ‘physical Guru’
concept. Then the same thing happened
again, I again came across one of the
article with the same photograph. And I
closed it again. I think it happened
quiet a few times then one day, I was
browsing the web and came across an
article “Who AM I” on
www.hinduism.co.za.
It was “Who AM I” enquiry by Ramana
Maharishi. The article had no photograph
of Maharishi. When I went to Maharishis’
website, I found out it was the same
photograph that I had seen a couple of
times when I had closed the page. The
question ‘Who Am I’ was something that
led the mind to thinking that who is the
one to whom these feelings of anger,
hatred or desire are happening. For the
first time the mind was not questioning
these feelings or questioning the
Supreme- why these feelings are arising
but questioning the one to whom these
feelings are arising. This marked a
complete turn around in the so-called
search from knowing the Supreme to
knowing the “I”. "
The switch was brought by the question by
Maharishi "Who am I" and after that I think
the enquiry took several weeks. It is not
actually the enquiry but the understanding
that this 'I' is nothing but an idea that takes
time to get firmly established. I think this
continued for another 18 months or 2 years.
No, there was no glimpse or experience. On
enquiring when the thoughts naturally slows
down, the awareness which is in the
background comes to the foreground. however,
the enquiry should not stop here. the
enquiry should continue because the 'I' is
not the awareness or consciousness.
NDM: It sounds like you were
practicing Bhatki yoga. What kind of scripture were
you reading exactly?
Tarun Sardana: Satvastu Ka
Kudrati Granth, Bhagwad Gita, Ramayan, Shree
Guru Granth Sahib were the few scriptures that
we used to read at home.
NDM: Did you also practice karma
yoga?
Tarun Sardana:
If you follow Bhakti yoga,
Karma Yoga happens naturally. On the path of
devotion, one tends to devote all his actions to the supreme and
accepts the results without any prejudice. And
the same is true with Karma yoga, if one
practices karma yoga, bhakti happens
automatically, all your actions become your
offering to the supreme.
NDM: When you say you were just sitting,
did you also meditate as with samadhi (one pointed
concentration), vipassana (insight meditation as
they refer to it in Buddhism) and
so on?
Or was it more like
hearing, reading, uninterrupted contemplation,
(nididhyasana)
and reflecting on the
scripture
(manana)
or this "who am I" question?
Tarun Sardana:
Regarding samadhi or vipassana are concerned, I
am not sure what all mind went through. The
enquiry just struck the mind and it used to be
absorbed mostly in it. After the mind is
absorbed in the enquiry, the thoughts slow down
so samadhi and vipassana they all happen
naturally.
NDM:
What about some of the prerequisites and practices
mentioned by Adi Shankara and others such as Shad-Sampat,
the
sixfold virtues of Sama, Dama, Uparati, Titiksha, Sraddha and
Samadhana?
Tarun Sardana: They
sound nice but why should one do that?
NDM:
Well, according to Vedanta, as well as the tradition of
yoga, they say that if one does not, the odds are you will not
have equanimity for one? They are supposed to bring
about concentration, mental discipline, self control
of the senses and more. It also prepares one
to concentrate the mind like a laser beam during self enquiry and
as a result helps to
purify the vasansas
(likes and dislikes).
In a sense, it is like cleaning the stains out of
the soiled cloth before it is dipped in a vat to be
dyed a brilliant color.
Metaphorically speaking it is also
preparation for the knowledge to sink in.
Sri Sankaracharya says that the student must be equipped
with the four means of salvation.
Viveka,
(discrimination),
Vairagya,
(dispassion), Mumukshutva, (intense longing
for liberation), as well
Shad-sampat,
the 6 virtues already mentioned.
Concerning
yoga practice, Sri Sawmi Sivananda also said
it requires having a "pure mind". That this is an
essential condition for Brahman to be known. see
here.
He also said
"Now-a-days there are plenty
of 'Talking Brahman'. No flowery talk or verbosity
can make a man Brahman. It is constant, intense,
earnest Sadhana and Sadhana alone can give a man
direct Aparoksha Brahmic realization (Svanubhava or
Sakshatkara) wherein he sees Brahman just as he sees
the solid white wall in front of him and feels
Brahman, just as he feels the table behind him.
Practice, practice, practice and become established
in Brahman."
Do you believe you can feel
Braham like a solid white wall in front of you without this type of Sadhana?
Tarun Sardana:
I feel
no practice can make a man Brahman. And as far
as feeling Brahman like a solid white wall, I would
first investigate why should I feel Brahman like a
solid wall before I go ahead and put any efforts or
sadhana into it.
NDM: So how do you feel Braham?
Tarun Sardana:
Again
the question is why should one feel Brahman? What is
Brahman and why should it be felt? Why should it be
seen?
NDM:
Sarvam
khalv idam brahma -
All this verily
Brahman.
(Chhandogya Upanishad)
All that we see
in the world is Brahman.
What are your
thoughts on this?
Tarun Sardana:
You didn't answer what is
Brahman but yes you are right. All that we see
is Brahman but what about the one who sees it,
is it Brahman?
NDM: How can a tongue taste its own taste
buds? How can an iris see its own pupil?
Tarun Sardana:
So we got the riddle solved :-) one who is
seeing is Brahman and one which is being seen is
Brahman. Then why those rigorous practices
should be done? Whether one does those practices
or not, Brahman will still be Brahman.
Therefore, the need to realize and establish in
the Brahman is not the need of Brahman. Brahman
doesn't want that.
NDM: Yes but what about
vasanas
and samskaras?
Tarun Sardana:
:-) When you say that it is Brahman on both the
sides then where did these vasanas come from?
NDM:
The absolute Brahman is nirguna (without attributes)
ineffable and un-manifested.
The relative empirical - manifested Brahman is related to the
world that we see around us and experience with
our senses. It is avidya (ignorance) of
not knowing who we are and confusing the absolute and the
relative level which is also the problem.
This relative, worldly level is also
where vasanas (likes and dislikes) come into the picture.
So, how does one make these vasanas
non-binding?
Tarun Sardana:
There is no need to make
these vasanas unbinding. As you said vasanas are
borne out of maya or ignorance.
The root problem is ignorance not vasana.
Vasana is just the symptom.
Just let the mind investigate the 'I', and
maya becomes known. Once the root of the
problem is caught, symptoms automatically
disappear.John, Brahman as you said is Brahman
whether on absolute or relative level.
It doesn't make any difference to
Brahman whether the mind full of vasanas
realizes it or not. It may make a
difference to the mind but not to the
Brahman. There are lot of masters who
claim that they see or feel Brahman.
However, if you will peep in their house
when they are asleep and whisper slowly,
are you still seeing or feeling Brahman?
You will get no answer because the
knowledge and feeling is there only when
a master is awake and it sleeps when the
master sleeps.
So that knowing is not part of the no
mind state as most of the master claims.
It is very much part of the mind state.
Earlier the mind was stuck with 'I am so
and so' knowledge and now it is stuck
with 'I am Brahman' knowledge. Beyond
that nothing else has happened. Only the
content of the mind has been replaced.
If the former content was ego than the
latter is spiritual ego.
NDM: Can you tell me about this KnowI. It says
that it is "dedicatedly involved in promoting and
facilitating the Self knowledge, i.e. the knowledge
of 'I', through various mediums like books,
articles, workshops, and trainings.'
What kind of trainings are these that you teach?
KnowI is just a small initiative through which I
conduct small workshops on basic topics like
studies, peer-relationships, respect etc. for
school students. It is not related with
non-duality in any way :-) These are free
workshops, not paid that I usually do in my free
time. I think only once I charged the school for
basic transport etc. as they wanted it to be
done throughout the year. And KnowI is not an
ngo which accepts any donations to support these
activities. Whatever I can save through my
personal savings or otherwise is use in KnowI. I
don't offer any talks and I don't teach any
spiritual or enlightening stuff because I am
myself not enlightened :-) So no awakening
retreats with free lunches stuff :-) And anyway,
world is already full of so many enlightened
teachers and masters that to create an
equilibrium we need more of ordinary
un-enlightened beings now :-)
However, there were couple of friends who used
to visit me and ask some stuff after they had
read Dissolved so that conversation we have
compiled in the form of a new book that I may
release in a month or so and it is very much
related to the conversation that we had today
about Brahman.
NDM:
When you say that you are not enlightened, who
is there not to be enlightened?
Tarun Sardana:
The same being
with whom you are doing this interview is there. I
will not say that interview is happening on its own
or talk is just happening but no one is really
there:-) There is a bundle of knowledge which is
there who is answering all your questions and this
bundle is not enlightened if something called as
enlightenment really exist.
NDM: So what is enlightenment then?
Tarun Sardana:To be
honest, I really have no idea what it is and for
whom.
NDM: Was
there a particular moment in time when an
understanding or knowledge took place? When this
switch occurred from being identified with Tarun's
body/mind to being identified with something other
than this?
Tarun Sardana:
When I
was doing the enquiry a sudden shift happened to the
awareness.
NDM: Then at
this point did this awareness/knowledge of this
awareness stick or did it go back and forth like
before?
Tarun Sardana
When the shift to the awareness
happens, it shakes one completely...as it is
completely opposed to the mind-body identification
one is taught from childhood and then it takes form
of immense joy that fills the body. I don't know how
to put it but it is like some high that one
experiences so it continued for I don't know weeks
or months may be....however, I continued with the
enquiry and noticed the 'I' was not this awareness
as well...it was just the knowledge of this
awareness...till the time 'I' was identified as
awareness, the efforts used to be there to abide in
the awareness...back and forth to mind-body
identification used to happen...continuous
practice...continuous remembrance used to be
there...but once the 'I' was disidentified from the
awareness as well, efforts also dropped...
I see people talking and teaching
about how the awakening happened to them and they
became one with awareness...there are many modern
advaita teachers who talk about this supreme
truth of 'I am awareness'...they are teaching and
conducting retreats for the same...but i still don't
know how it happened to them and how will they do it
for others. 'I' can never merge in the awareness
forever. 'I' is the knowledge it is just a pointer.
NDM: So how is it now? What
has changed since then if anything? If someone asks
you who or what are you, how do you answer them?
Tarun Sardana:
Nothing has really
changed. I still don't see or feel Brahman as a
solid white wall :-) The changes only happen at
the content level. The understanding of 'I',
you, me or situations gets little changed.
If someone will ask me who i am. I will still
give the same answer as before. You cannot go
and tell everyone that the 'I' don't exist
:-) Government will not take that answer, Tarun
will still have to pay taxes whether Tarun in
reality exists or not. Tarun will still have to
earn the living, take care of the family even
if Tarun is just an idea. The truth is anyway
not that the 'I' does not exist. The truth is
'I' which is the knowledge exists as an idea or
a thought and it stays till the time beingness
stays in the body. Let it stay. When the time to
leave will come, it will leave. And during the
stay whatever needs to be done will have to be
done. Why should one work for this 'I' to
realize or be one with Brahman? Right now it is
temporary. Is it not? Just a temporary knowledge
which is there as long as the beingness is there
and will leave as soon as the beingness
leaves. Why to make it permanent and invite the
trouble. When you can eat fruits without
climbing the tree why to bother climbing the
tree? :-)
NDM: When you say eat fruits
without climbing the tree, what kind of fruits
are you talking about?
Tarun Sardana:
I knew it this is what you
gonna ask :-) see, why to invite the trouble
knowing and realizing Brahman when the knower is
not going to be there anyway...why to climb the
tree and put unnecessary efforts...for such a
temporary thing like 'I' why would you
need eternal happiness?...if 'I' is going to be
there till eternity, do all that...when it is
not going to be there till eternity, why to
bother with all that?
NDM: What about to alleviate things
like suffering, fear, aversions, doubt?
Tarun Sardana:
Suffering, fear, pain,
aversions, doubt all those imply to the 'I'. so
better invest time in understanding this 'I'
than looking up to Brahman for all these. That's
why I said when you can eat the fruits without
climbing the tree why bother climbing the tree.
NDM
:
So you are saying that practices like
Shad-Sampat,
the sixfold virtues of Sama, Dama, Uparati, Titiksha, Sraddha and
Samadhana are unnecessary. If you skip
these and go directly to atma vicara (self
enquiry), that is enough to end all of the
suffering, fear, aversions and desires?
If that
is the case, then why did these teachers that
you mentioned, Ramana and others like him do
these stringent practices? Ramana practiced and
meditated for 20 years in a cave after his
childhood realization to get to the clear
understanding that he had. This is not saying
that one needs to live in a cave for 20 years,
but there is a purpose to these practices.
Tarun Sardana:
I am not saying any
practice is necessary or unnecessary. If one
thinks these practices lead to Brahman and
he is interested in knowing or feeling
Brahman, he should go ahead and do them. And
I am not even saying that self enquiry leads
to end of all suffering or aversions or all
that stuff. I am saying these things
pertains to the 'I', so better place to look
for their source is 'I'.
What Maharishi did one cannot understand
by reading books about him. We can only
understand what he says or means by
following the method that he gave. So if
anyone is interested in knowing and
understanding Maharishi, one should
follow his method, one should follow his
advice. If that is the method he has
prescribed like following Shad-Sampat or
doing stringent practices, and someone
really wants to be like Maharishi, he
should very much do all that.
NDM:
If you
have skipped certain steps like the
ones mentioned above, do you believe
this will bring true liberation?
Tarun Sardana:
I don't know if one is really bound
except for in one's head. What is
true liberation, anyway? I would
really like to understand.
NDM: What
do you see as being liberation?
Tarun Sardana:
I don't know. It is a very vague word.
Liberation in itself is incomplete.
Liberation from what would make it more
precise.