My dying dog
shows me
how little I know.

Roger (Rogier) Voorhoeve was born in Leusden, Holland in 1967. He emigrated to Australia in 2005. He now lives in the Adelaide Hills with his wife and three children. He works as an architect designing energy-efficient homes. He recently began teaching with Linda Claire at the Simple Meditation Centre in Crafers West, South Australia. 
 

 

NDM: Can you please tell me how you became interested in meditation?

Roger: I wasn't suddenly interested in meditation - it was a gradual process.

There were always the deeper questions of life in me. Questions like: Why am I in this life? How did my life start? What happens when I am dying? I wanted to find answers and collect knowledge about life on Earth and the Universe. I also tried to find out more in discussions with people, but it didn't give me all the answers - instead I had more questions.

Around the time my son was born I attended a course called “Practical Philosophy". The course started with a body scan and a 20 minute meditation. I experienced a deeper contact with the body and this showed me that the separation I was feeling had mainly to do with not being grounded in the body and lost in thoughts. During this course I met my teacher Adriaan. He was very sick at that time with only months to live, but he wasn't hiding his fear of death - instead he was very open about it. Seeing that pushed me more deeply into meditation.

Around that time we immigrated as a family to Australia and leaving most of our friends, family and securities behind had a deep effect on me. After a few months traveling, we settled down in Adelaide and in an advertisement at the local shops I read about simple meditation sessions with Linda Clair. During the meditation evenings, when I was sitting in front of her I saw very clearly how open she was and how naturally she responded to everything. I also felt that she didn't have any expectations of me or herself. I just saw that she is living in freedom. This made me very determined to go deeply into meditation. 

NDM: Can you tell me about this meditation? What kind of meditation is it?

Roger: The meditation is based on the body. Feeling your body with all the sensations is a way to get some distance from the mind. To centre yourself in the body you follow the breath. The breath is the primary sensation of the body and always present. Every time we breathe in or out the abdomen expands or contracts. By bringing the awareness to this sensation and being open to all the other sensations and pains, the body will contain more energy.

Sitting with my teacher (Linda) helped me enormously. To be around her energetic presence soften the mind and made me  very vulnerable. Linda often looked at me for a long time. During this (eye) contact she opened me up more by transmitting energy. The more open you are, the more energy you can contain and the more grounded you become (and need to be) in your body.

NDM. How did you feel this energy in the body?

Roger: I felt it as pain for a long time. During retreats I sat most of the time for long hours without having a break, so the pain would build up in my body. It started often in my bottom and knees and later in my head. The pain in my head was very shocking for me. I had never experienced it before and it was very hard to sit with. It made me sometimes a bit unsure about the whole thing. My teacher had similar pains in her practice and she assured me that it was a very good sign. Once after a very hard sitting she said "I am so happy for you". Hearing that was an even a bigger shock, but at the same time I felt her honesty and compassion. Pain is an incredible teacher for me. It is very hard to sit with pain but it brings you to the point where you are able to just "feel" it without emotionally labelling it with the mind. This was the first sign of feeling free, and I became obsessed with retreats and long sittings. After an intense session I could often feel the energy running through my body. The direct physical pain was gone and I experienced a sensation like a purring cat. There was a deeper aliveness in my body than I had ever felt before. I became more able to just sit with this current and it made my body very sensitive. It feels like the whole body is vibrating with "now". Especially when the brain vibrates it feels like everything you receive is fresh without the interference of the mind (the past). The heart opens more to include everything and the hardness I always felt in this vulnerable area transforms into life and love. The heart becomes the centre of your body.

NDM. What about bliss, or ecstatic feelings of rapture in the body?

Roger: Once you open to the energy everything starts to change.

Being "here" is a very energetic state. Once you are "here" there is no space for the person anymore. All the personal wanting, likes and dislikes vanish. That is the big peace, the bliss and ecstasy. There is nobody reacting. The peace is to be life without needing to top it up with personal desires.

Being open to what is happening is thrilling. The energy vibrates fast in my body and there is a feeling of union. The body becomes this enormous field in which everything vibrates. The outline of the body softens and there is just this deep feeling of being. Not being somebody but just being.

NDM. When and how did this happen?

Roger: It happened during a 7-day retreat in June, 2010. It was one of the last days of the retreat. I had long sittings and was very determined to do whatever was necessary to become free of the mind. Just before the start of the morning session I read the following quote in my teacher’s book "To be fully free, you need to be so grounded that you are able to let go of everything-even enlightenment". That was what I needed - I had to forget my goal and just be open. The "I" can’t make it happen. 

I started the morning session and felt very strong and soft at the same time and was just sitting for the sake of sitting. Half way through the sitting it felt like a huge thunderstorm came in and it took me over completely. There was nobody reacting to it, just a feeling to let it run its course. The energy was overpowering. It was very intense and at the same time there was a deep feeling of being "home". I had felt energy in my body often but this time was totally different - the person was gone and there was a total surrender to it. This time the energy became reality and brought the mind into its place. 

After the session I wrote the following words;

Energy is running through my body clearing out my past. Energy makes this body alive. Energy is the motor of this body. Energy is always and everywhere. Energy takes care of the breathing. Energy is life. After the sitting I had a shower and felt deeply connected to life. The standalone system was transformed into a grid-connection.

NDM: When you say that there was a thunderstorm in your body. Was it in certain parts of the body? Or was it all over. In the head and so on? If so how would you describe this energy?
 
Roger: The epicentre of the energy was in my head and it felt like a huge force was bringing the head to life (again) - like a jet stream for the brain, a big clean up. It is this life force that clears out the mind, the past. The energy was all over my body - all the cells were vibrating. That was the big revelation; "life is in me". It is not outside me but deep in my body. This life energy is always here and expressed in all forms. The body is the expression of the life energy.　

NDM: Also when you say that there was nobody reacting to it. Can you please elaborate more on this?
　
Roger: The "ego" was weak enough to let the impersonal in. The energy took over. You can compare it with a life threatening situation where the "me" disappears for a moment. There is just "now" and the body is acting on it. The same happened in the thunderstorm. It came unexpectedly and drilled its way into my body.

"Nobody" is relative. What happened was a big shift; the foreground ("me") became the background and the background (life) the foreground. It is not that there isn’t a person anymore, but the person is not the centre of attention anymore.　
　
NDM: What happened to the mind at this point and afterwards? When you say, mind, do you mean thoughts and so on?
 
Roger: The mind is what holds on to your past and in doing this it keeps the false identity alive. This identity takes a central position and calls it "my life". Everything revolves around "me". You live in your private world. The mind creates the illusion of a separate self.

The personal is the same substance as the impersonal but it is very fixed and limited by its viewpoint. Once the obsession with yourself ends, a zooming out into life happens. See it as a drop of water (the person) merging into the ocean of life.

After the "storm" the mind lost its force and momentum even more. There is still a mind and especially during the first 6 months I could be emotional sometimes. As the energy becomes faster and more consistent, the mind moves more to the background. More and more I approach life from my heart instead of my head. Becoming less is my practice for life.

NDM: What about other things such as your habits or tendencies. Have any of these changed at all?

Roger: Most of my characteristics are still present, but my habitual behaviour has changed dramatically over the years. I have always been quite independent and determined and have never had the desire to do or say things just to please people. But what has changed is that there are very few emotions involved in my behaviour now. 

For example, when my boss is discussing something with me I give him my honest answer.  I'm just listening, and say what I feel is necessary or helpful. I am not saying things to please this person for a better outcome for myself. During and after the discussion there are hardly any emotions in me. It is not about "me". Everything becomes very clear but not cold. Talking without fear is talking with love. 

It’s the same with work and activities - I just do it and it doesn’t really matter what kind of work it is. When the job is finished there is hardly any memory left. I am not dragging it on to the next activity. 
 
NDM: Do you still have emotions like anger?

Roger: I haven’t had much anger in my life and there isn’t anger now. There can be frustrations with a situation or person but when I look closely and see that the resistance in me, this is enough to accept the situation.
I can have an argument with someone but an argument can clear out a lot and is sometimes necessary to bring you closer. After it happens, I am not judging this person. I see this person as before the argument, I feel open as usual - there is not an emotional barrier in me.
 

Dr. Ramesam Vermuri

NDM:  Do you have any of these traits outlined by Dr Ramesam Vermuri listed below? 1.     Universal “Love” (Maitri) 2.     Equipoise   3.     Tranquility   4     .Sense of happiness   5. Absence of sense of “self” 6. Absence of ‘Doership’ 7 high levels of Gamma activity in the brain 8. State of Deep Sleep with Awareness (Yoganidra) 9. Fearlessness and Detachment 10. Always in the “Now”

Roger: I feel most of the traits and especially in a meditation sitting or in a retreat they can be very strong. Other times I might not be as strongly aware of them.
 
NDM:  What do you feel about science attempting to measure these traits in the blood or the brain?

Roger: Most people find science very solid - something they can trust, and see meditation as vague and mystical. Science can bring meditation closer to people by attempting to explain the traits in the body and the working of the mind. But science is based on explaining. "Now" can’t be understood with the mind. The mind is personal and can’t explain the impersonal. It is too fixed and limited. To be "here" you have to let go of the "wanting to understand". When the mind is still, all is one.
 
NDM: Would you be willing to conduct an EEG test on your brain patterns or your blood to measure or to detect these traits for scientific purposes?

Roger: I am not interested in it myself, but if it can be helpful for science to make a bridge to meditation, I am likely to do it.

NDM: Many people in the "neo advaita" movement tend to invalidate meditation and say that it is useless, all it does is reinforce the ego or the seeker? What are your thoughts on this?

Roger: What is the alternative? Nobody else can do it for you. Only by seeing very clearly the working of the mind you can break the obsession with yourself. It might feel unnatural sometimes to put in so much effort to become free of the mind, but I feel this effort is required to deepen life. You have to practice "letting go" all the time. That is what life is.

Many times during my practice I thought; once I am enlightened I don’t have to come to the meditation centre and don’t have to do the retreats and the intensive practice anymore. But when it happened I saw very clearly "this practice is my life".

You come into life as no one, through life you become someone and by letting go, you become purity again.

NDM: Why did you decide to go to a non-sectarian teacher over an organized religion like Zen Buddhism?

Roger: At that time I was looking for a meditation group and a strong connection with a teacher to give my life more depth. I didn’t have the ambition to become enlightened, I didn’t even know the "existence" of it. It was destiny that brought me to Linda.

NDM: What do you make of this Zen koan or your thoughts about this?

The Gateless Gate
Case 38, A Cow Passes Through a Window
The Case

Wuzu Fayan said, "For example, it’s just like a great cow passing through a latticed window. Her head, horns, and four legs have passed through. Why is it that her tail can’t pass through?"

Wumen’s Commentary

If in regard to this you are able to turn yourself upside down, attain one single eye, and utter a turning word, you will be able to repay the four obligations above and help the living beings of the three realms below. If you are still unable to do this, reflect again on the tail; then you will be able to grasp it for the first time.

The Verse

If it passes through, it will fall into a ditch;

If it turns back, it will be destroyed.

This tiny little tail –

What a strange and marvelous thing it is!

Roger: All beings are free. It is the illusion of a separate self (the tail) that makes you feel imprisoned.　
The tail can’t get through. Something that isn’t real limits your true nature. Once you　let go　of this　belief, the tail passes through. This is an endless practice.
 
NDM: So what is enlightenment? What is "full enlightenment"? Is there such a thing?
 
Roger: Enlightenment is being naked to the bone. There is nothing to hide and nothing to protect. This means there is very little fear. The mind, based on fear, becomes very weak and the deep attachment to the body changes into this energizing state of being. Living your life makes way for being life. You realize your true nature.

It feels like the beginning of the end. There are moments of "full" enlightenment and moments of less. There is always something to let go. This deepening feels unlimited.
 
Full enlightenment is accepting everything all the time. There is no mind - only this open receiving state. Like a newborn baby or the wildness of pure nature. Working more deeply into that is what I feel is the purpose of being on earth.

Full is relative, and maybe as long as you are in the body there is some attachment.
 
NDM: when you say it was destiny that brought you to Linda, what are your thoughts about karma and free will, verses pre-destination?
 
Roger: There is no difference between free will and pre-destination. Underneath all choices lies the destiny to follow the heart. This is what everybody wants but it can be very obscured by fear.

NDM: What would you say is the cause of all suffering?

Roger: Fear. Fear for the insecurity of existence. Fear is the fuel for the mind that separates you from life.
　
NDM: What are your thoughts about the "stink of enlightenment", as is known in Zen? Also known as "enlightenment sickness" or "enlightenment disease". For example, when one becomes attached to golden shackles, makes a big deal out of it, takes on a new enlightened persona, begins to feel special, sitting in high chairs and giving satsangs?

Roger: Once it struck me I saw it very clearly; this is what I am, nothing to hide, an open book, not dressed up as a person anymore. Nobody has to confirm it, nobody has to adore me. I will never get imprisoned again surely not for pretending enlightenment. I wrote down "The only thing I want is becoming less".

Living in this world where being someone is highly respected; you have to be mindful all the time, watch your intentions and be humble. Never assume you are "fully enlightened". Enlightenment sickness feels to me that one is still obsessed with him or herself.
　
NDM: What are your thoughts on this "false guru test". Please see here. www.nondualitymagazine.org/nonduality_magazine.1.falsegurutest.
 
Roger: I agree with most points except the one "states his or her own enlightenment".
Linda is always very clear and open that she is enlightened. It was very helpful to me. Knowing and seeing somebody who is free shows you your own potential. She made herself very vulnerable by describing her state and I saw it as great courage to come out for it like she does.

Teachers who don’t talk about enlightenment tend to make it mystical. I feel it should be an open topic without the need to "sell" it.

A simple "test" for enlightenment is the energy around the teacher.

NDM: What are your thoughts on spiritual marketing. Please see here. www.nondualitymagazine.org/nonduality_magazine.1andrewp.wanttobecomeaspirtualteacher.htm

Roger: No thoughts - you can’t buy love.

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For more info about Roger and Linda's retreats visit.  www.simplemeditation.net