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RAMESAM VEMURI
Interview with non-duality magazine.  Part 2

 

NDM:  Did you ever formally study traditional Advaita Vedanta?  

Ramesam Vemuri:  I should at the outset say that other than as a matter, perhaps, of curiosity, ‘me’ or what I did is utterly inconsequential, not to be considered important. I never studied Advaita formally under a Guru-Sishya sampradaya (tradition) nor did I pursue any particular teacher or ashram.  In fact I feel hesitant to “follow” any organized system that upfront demands obsequious obeisance, dictates a belief structure, creates a hope and promises a distant carrot.

My spiritual inquiry, if I may use that term, has been more like the pursuit of research in science – define the problem as it arises, do a literature search, then investigate, check and cross check to the extent possible and so on.  Undoubtedly there is a greater influence of Advaitic thought of the ancient Indian texts on me simply because they are some of the finest philosophical texts based on logic and they were also the more readily accessible resources for me.  I am indebted to them and to the innumerable people/teachers who helped me in arriving at a clear understanding.

NDM: Is there any particular method or study out of all these various ways that clicked with you over the others?

Ramesam Vemuri:  To me it looks that the best way is: Never give up questioning even in the face of an apparently convincing answer.  Keep wading through the jungle (of information) until a clear meadow is in sight and you begin to feel the fresh breath of air just like that at the daybreak after a stormy night (sorry for the mixed metaphor; but hope you got the picture!).

NDM: Why exactly do you feel hesitant to follow any organized system that demands obsequious obeisance exactly?  

Ramesam Vemuri::  A Philippine friend of mine used to quote a proverb.  If you want the bird in your hand to fly high, you have to loosen the grip of your fist.  There cannot be free inquiry when you are already told to fall in line with a system / a method.  An open wondering mind is a pre-requisite for any new discovery, particularly so in the case of the unknown.

Let me quote from Scientific American, July 2010, about a research paper  regarding a questioning mind:  (www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-willpower-paradox&page=2) :

"[T]hose with questioning minds were more intrinsically motivated to change. They were looking for a positive inspiration from within, rather than attempting to hold themselves to a rigid standard. Those asserting will lacked this internal inspiration, which explains in part their weak commitment to future change. Put in terms of addiction recovery and self-improvement in general, those who were asserting their willpower were in effect closing their minds and narrowing their view of their future. Those who were questioning and wondering were open-minded—and therefore willing to see new possibilities for the days ahead."

Supplication or obedience to an authority or subjugation or deference to a power is a poor imitation of what happens in ‘surrender’ after Self-Realization. True Surrender is an effortless collapse of an individuating 'self.'  One cannot impose by force upfront the lakshana (quality) that automatically comes with the attainment of lakshya (goal), more so in this peculiar situation where lakshya and lakshana are one and the same!

Any extraneously imposed discipline / method / system requires a rigid disciplinary structure, an adjudicating authority and a policing mechanism.  These systems then acquire a life of their own and struggle for their survival and perpetuation.  They adopt all the tricks of the ‘ego’ in creating a “personality” for themselves, ultimately proving to be counterproductive and detrimental to the very ‘death of ego’, the ostensible purpose for which they have come in the first place!

NDM: Have you read the Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by the way? Here is a short pdf from a chapter from this book.  Assault on Reason.

www.joeldiana.com/downloads/guru_papers/gp-Assault_Reason_col.pdf

Ramesam Vemuri::  Thanks John for the Link.  I have not read the book.  I do vibe with questioning any authority, however spiritually high it is rated to be – not out of derision or disrespect but in order not to be impeded in my own search being fed by second hand wisdom transmitted with a diktat to obey.

Most of the Gurus, whatever color robes they come draped in – black, orange, white, pink, yellow and so on – are concerned most of the time with human ‘relationships.’    Some of them treat Oneness as a theory from which societal ‘user apps’ can be derived.  In the process they build up empires of their organizations, expand with imperialistic ambitions, develop loyal colonies and be lost in a plethora of monetary and material problems – all in the name of transcending those very problems! 

Advaita teaching is not aimed at groups.  It is not a group activity or team effort. It is an individualistic inquiry, deconstruction of one’s own imaginary world until it is sublated into an ineffable Existence-Consciousness-Infinity (satyam jnanam anantam).

NDM: So without a teacher/guru of some kind, how does one navigate a path through this non-dual jungle? How did you do this without falling into all the traps like getting stuck in the absolute, or only seeing half the picture and the other pitfalls?

Ramesam Vemuri::  Non-duality is not the jungle.  Non-duality is clarity.  Information on it, about it and around it is the jungle! 

One of the derivative meanings for the Sanskrit word Guru is, as you know:  the dispeller of darkness. In the ancient times when knowledge is transmitted through oral tradition, a human Guru (dispeller of darkness or ignorance) was necessarily required because the Guru was the only information source. Each Guru developed, used and expanded certain terminology to explain the Truth as realized by that Master to a lineage of his disciples.

Fast forward to the present day.  We have now multimedia storage devices as information resources and satellite communication technologies for its dissemination.  These do dilute the mandatory requirement of a human Guru (dispeller of ignorance).

The more important question is how do we manage with the information ‘overload’ and distinguish the grain from the chaff. 

 No acid tests are available. No guarantees provided.  No Bureau of Standards certifications.

I do not know how it happens, but normally some or the other appropriate information source becomes accessible when a seeker is seized with an intense yearning.  (Maybe because information is existent everywhere or whatever the reason).  You resonate with the information that opens up before you and keep moving with your inquiry without giving up questioning as we discussed (in the beginning of Part - II).

NDM. How does one know if one is deluding oneself without some outside source, authority, validating the persons understanding and knowledge and experiences?

Ramesam Vemuri:  Tests, validations and approvals by an external agency can certify an acquired and accumulated knowledge and expertise. 

True Knowledge is not accumulative nor does it get stored.  It’s ever fresh, always in the “Now.”

Yes, it is quite possible a person may be wallowing in his/her deluded understanding.  Advaita does not have a British Pharmacopeia or an American DSM to prescribe a standard line of therapy for such situations. (In the strictest sense of Advaita, ultimately everything is okay ‘as Is’; nothing needs to be changed! So no need for any prior manuals of remedies).  A thumb rule is: Keep on questioning (as we already discussed). When the questions get exhausted, question who/where  is the questioner.

If a particular individual is unclear, gets a doubt at one time or other, it is (s)he who has to define his problem and probe deeper into it. No one else can hold a brief on his behalf or pose the question and look for an answer.  No proxy will work to ask and seek solution.  Each individual seeker has to himself pose his question as it arises to (in) him and find the solution. (The surprise is that the “questioner” is the problem; not the form or content of the question!  The answer does not lie in a solution but in the dissolution (of the “questioner”)).

NDM : Do you see we are living at a time of the end of the traditional guru? Or the days of the cyber guru, giving email satsangs, or the universal guru that speaks one language only. English.

Greg Goode  says: No longer can people believe that liberation speaks only Tibetan, or that the world was created from holy Sanskrit syllables. People are saying, "If it can't be said in my language, then it isn't so universal after all." Even as recently as thirty years ago, seekers of self-awareness had to trek to India or the Himalayas to see someone who could impart a message of liberation. These days there are many routes:  Barnes & Noble, Borders, Amazon, Yahoo, Google, mobile phones and BlackBerries"

www.heartofnow.com/files/other.writings.html

Ramesam Vemuri: Any stored information will always be something of the “past.”  It can never be in the present like a live teacher is.  Further, human communication is predominantly non-verbal.  In contrast a storage device conveys what is merely stored.  A live teacher may be able to convey more than that in an interactive mode and also through an appropriate interpretation of  the info in a more contemporary manner. 

For example, ocean and waves were an ancient metaphor for Brahman and the world.  In the mid 20th century cinema and film projection was the oft-cited example.  Present day teachers talk about computer screen and the multiple documents on it!

At any given point of time, the Advaitic search is for the “Unknown” and not for what is known.  Every new generation may come with new questions in the light of their own backgrounds and experiences.    A static dead information device cannot meet such growing demands. 

Thus a live teacher may not get totally replaced.  A seeker in the cyber age may be able to pursue his inquiry in greater physical comfort under a distant human Guru providing an occasional interface.

NDM: Also what about this sensitive money issue that seems to hit a raw nerve whenever it’s raised. 

Is there anything right or wrong with doing this?  Is there any thing right or wrong with making a few , rupee's on this ancient non dual teaching?  What is your take on this controversial and almost taboo question?

Ramesam Vemuri:  First of all no question need be a taboo.  If a particular doubt posits itself as a stumbling block, well, it should be attended to.

The ancient Indian system advises a student to redeem his indebtedness to the teacher by rendering service, by payment in kind or cash or in the absence of any other means of repayment, by passing on the wisdom obtained by him to others after obtaining Guru’s permission.  This obviously shows the necessity of some accepted social structural norm to preserve and propagate the knowledge to others.   It is also important that a seeker had to be eligible (ready) to receive the wisdom, the most important criterion being his single minded unswerving devotion for liberation in exclusion of any other desire (including food, clothing, wealth, status etc. beyond the barest minimum required for sustenance).

Another point I may mention is that the ancient sages foresaw a danger in throwing open the knowledge for one and all because it can be detrimental to the very health of the individual and the society, if it is misunderstood and/or incompletely understood or perverted in interpretation.

For example, if everything is Brahman, is it okay to feed dog shit to a hungry beggar?  Or because all is One and there is nothing like right or wrong, is it okay to go on chopping off the heads like the Queen in Alice’s wonderland?  Is not one accountable for a crime as per Advaita?

The point is one has to stick to the full course of Self-inquiry, right up to the very end – the end being he, his separate individuating ego with all its desires, plans, wishes, needs etc. etc. is completely dissolved.  When that happens a spontaneous morality will shine in him, not the acquired or assumed or imposed type of social order/ rules and regulations. 

As declared in the Upanishads and repeated in Bhagavad-Gita, a Self-realized man is feared by none nor is he afraid of anyone.  He harms no body nor does anybody harm him.

Such sages, during the ancient times, were the conscience keepers of the nation state whose rulers always sought their guidance and advice (by visiting their forest dwellings if necessary) in the governance of the country.

The social fabric too was designed in the ancient times to facilitate the development of the individual through four stages of life – learner, householder, forest dweller and renunciate.   A supportive economic rubric was built around this structure as if the entire nation state is one smoothly functioning organism, not composed of disparate individuals.

Under such circumstances, what for are the green backs or red francs required by a Jivanmukta?

Now the cyber-guru has thrown open free access to the knowledge without the necessary social support structure for his own maintenance.  On the top of it, promises (misleadingly in some cases at least) of permanent happiness are made by some teachers even in the absence of some ground preparation by the seeker.  Have we then reduced Non-dualism to the gimmicks of market forces and ad campaigns? Can it then be called true teaching?

NDM: If one is pure actionless non dual awareness, A Jivanmukta, then who is doing the spending of this money that is earned through the teaching?  Who is the doer/enjoyer/spender/earner?   Would a so called Jivanmukta, or a so called arharant be interested in making some rupees from this knowledge? 

Ramesam Vemuri:  We have already seen that a full blown Jivanmukta who does not have even the consciousness that there is a separate body with limbs for him would hardly need any money.  His life goes ‘effortlessly’ taking things as they happen, eating whatever is available, sleeping wherever possible without any sense or claim of possessions, ownership or doership or experiencership.

But we have seen (in Part – I) that there is usually a time gap between the attainment of firm unswerving abidance in Brahman and obtaining Knowledge on Brahman.  A seeker is not totally unaware of his body and a need to feed it during this intermittent period. How will he survive in this phase?

The guiding texts (in the traditional system of teaching) for the three stages of Listening (shravana), Reflection (manana) and Contemplation Meditation (nidhdhyasa) are the Upanishads, Brahmasutras and Bhagavad-Gita respectively.  Thus Bhagvad-Gita is the life-strategy manual to answer any questions regarding correctness of one’s actions and conduct in each phase.  That was the system followed in the olden days.

But we are now in instant coffee days.  We want instant enlightenment and instant permanent abidance in Brahman.  Unfortunately we are unable to shed the accumulated baggage of habits and thought patterns equally instantly!

We have the super structure but lack the lower floors in the cyber age.  Some people even put Non-dualism up for sale to make both ends meet. Driven by market forces, they may like to have their own USP and wear their wisdom as a flashy ornamentation.  In the process are we forgetting that we are back in the old game of the worldly miasma presenting itself in a new avatar?

NDM: Ok, what about the belief in karma? Reincarnation? Whatever the incorporeal essence is that some believe transmigrates.   

It is known in different spiritual traditions; "the most sacred body" (wujud al-aqdas) and "supracelestial body" (jism asli haqiqi) in Sufism, "the diamond body" in Taoism and Vajrayana, "the light body" or "rainbow body" in Tibetan Buddhism, "the body of bliss" in Kriya Yoga, and "the immortal body" (soma athanaton) in Hermeticism.  

Karana-Sarira - causal body, subtle body, Jiva, Atman" and "Purusha"  in Vedanta.  Budhuta, Linga Sharira in  Theosophy.  Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophical teachings usually referred to the Etheric and Astral Bodies. American Indians and indigenous peoples from around the world refer to this as a spirit, animism, or guide.  

Others like James Hillman call this psyche.  These are the various ethereal bodies that some believe contain samskaras, or sin and so on?  Do you believe that such an ethereal essence or a thing exists?  

What are all these various traditions talking about or pointing to exactly?

Ramesam Vemuri:  When we discussed ‘samskaras and vasanas’ in Part – I, we have seen how we invented those explanatory fictions.  Karma is no different.  Transmigration and re-birth are further stories to back up the fiction of karma.  (please see:    www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/karma_ramesam.htm )

The three bodies you are referring to – gross, subtle and causal – correspond to the three states of awake, dream and deep sleep.  They are said to be made up of finer and finer substances.  It is said that the grossest part of the food you eat is excreted.  The grosser part goes to make the physical body.  Finer material goes to make the subtle body and the finest the causal body.  You can draw your own conclusion on what all this would mean.

In the olden days dreams were a complete mystery.  They believed that dreams belonged to the mental body (subtle or manomaya kosa) made up of mind-stuff of the mental world.  The mental world was said to be accessible to yogis and gods.  It was believed to have its own life even after the death of the physical body.  Thanks to the modern research, we have much better picture now about dreams.  Of course, the last word is not yet said in science.  But we are able to pierce through some of the mystery.  We may even get a handle in future to control our dreams (see: www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-control-dreams).

That being the case, do you still like to go along with all these bodies and stories?

Further, when we understand that nothing is really born, nothing has a birth, where is the question of a variety of sheaths (koshas) or re-birth?  Rebirth for whom – an unborn ‘something’?

NDM: What would you say is the difference between "crazy wisdom" teachings and simply being crazy?

Ramesam Vemuri:  I do not know what is “crazy wisdom” teaching.

NDM: I would like to ask you about non duality awareness and dissociative disorders such as derealization and depersonalization.  If you look at this list of symptoms below, how different are they from what you described earlier concerning Jivanmukta?

Continuous or recurring feelings that you're an outside observer of your thoughts, your body or parts of your body .

Numbing of your senses or responses to the world around you

Feeling like a robot or feeling like you're living in a dream or in a movie

The sensation that you aren't in control of your actions, including speaking

Awareness that your sense of detachment is only a feeling, and not reality

 How would you make the distinction between someone who is self realized, and someone with a dissociative disorder of some kind?

Ramesam Vemuri:  There is another psychiatric problem referred to as Cotard’s syndrome.  An individual claims that he is dead because he feels that he does not possess a body!  Such people even take up some actions that could endanger their body or prove fatal under the false impression of having no body.  Obviously it is a pathological case.

At the same time, it is true that our ancient scriptures also say that sometimes it is hard to distinguish a mad cap from a highly realized individual.  That is why any assessment by an external onlooker is said to be impossible about the realization status of an individual.

While neuroscientists do have some knowledge of the pathological state of the brain of sick individuals having a variety of symptoms as listed by you, we have absolutely no known record of the brain scans of a realized man.  It is high time we should build up this information base and examine what sort of signature Self-realization leaves in the brain, if It does so at all. 

NDM:  R.D. Laing said "True sanity entails in one way or another the dissolution of the normal ego, that false self competently adjusted to our alienated social reality... and through this death a rebirth and the eventual re-establishment of a new kind of ego-functioning, the ego now being the servant of the divine, no longer its betrayer."
In the west, when this happens it is referred to as when an ego collapses, fragments, or disintegrates and when the shadow and archetypal contents flood in from the personal and collective unconscious causing psychosis, or a psychotic break from reality.  

In the east, its considered Self-realization or God-realization, seeing the face of God, Shiva and so on?  

How do you make the distinction between a psychotic break like this here and a satori or awakening experience? 

Ramesam Vemuri:  Any of the psychological phenomena, hallucinations, lack of control, inability to filter diverse and dissonant signals coming to the brain (e.g. schizophrenia) are all related to the activity of the mind.  So also the visions etc.  These leave a clear foot-print in the brain.  Orgasmic or epiphany states are

also clearly seen in the activity of different cortical regions (see: Pleasure of Sex vs. Bliss of Self in Brain Scans, Ramesam, V.  in Religion Demystified , 2008, p: 86-88. (www.zenpublications.com/forms/frm_g_book_catlogue.aspx?ltr= ).

In contrast, Advaita is about when the activity of the mind is nulled.  As per the metaphor provided by the sages, still wind is Brahman.  Moving wind is the world.  Movement implies that work is done.  It is energy expensive. In other words,  Stillness is Consciousness, movement is mind. But again, Still mind is Consciousness.  When mind becomes still, the cognizer, what is cognized and the process of cognition become one.  There is no subject, a separate distant object and the process of acting.  It will be quite interesting to see the scan of such a brain.  This has got to be different from epiphany.

NDM. Do you think it is wise for someone to make self evaluations, self assessments, self enlightenment claims and assertions, with it being thoroughly questioned, tested, investigated by someone who knows the ropes, has been there and done that so to speak?

 Ramesam Vemuri:  self-evaluation and self-assessment is advised in Advaita.  The very fact that he is conscious of a ‘self’ within him to do an evaluation barely conceals the final answer to be expected.

But Advaita does not and cannot support declartions and assertions of self-enlightenment!  A claim to do so is an oxymoron.  The very loss of ‘self’ is enlightenment.  Who or what is there to make a claim then and addressed to whom?

An external agent, as we have already discussed, can at the best provide some pointers as and when a question is raised by a specific individual.  It is up to the individual to see the “moon” in the direction of the finger.  Another person cannot see it for him!

NDM; Is entrusting someone's eternal soul just as important as entrusting someone's mind or physical body to a doctor for an operation?   I ask this since there are many snake oil salesman out there, masquerading as gurus? 

Ramesam Vemuri:  Is there an “eternal soul” that you really are in possession of? And does that “eternal soul”, if any, need a fixing?

Or are all such beliefs the marketing tricks of the snake oil salesmen?

NDM; How should someone make a decision like this? 

Ramesam Vemuri:  If you are going by the metaphor of handing over your body-mind to some doctor: A “You” sitting here do not surrender to other “some one or something” there in Non-dualism.  If you and the other are two distinct entities to be related by ‘surrendering’, it is dualism.  Jivanmukti does not exist in dualistic philosophies.

NDM:  How do you know if a guru is legitimate or not if they do not belong to some kind of tradition and have been thoroughly tested by their own teacher?  For example, I could even say I was a guru, anyone can make this claim?

Ramesam Vemuri:  This is an age-old question, discussed even in the Indian scriptures too.  There are innumerable schools of thoughts and equally highly competent individuals in all lines of teachings.  The advice we find in the scriptures is that a seeker should explore what appeals best for him, find a knowledgeable man in that school of thought and discuss with him all the issues in detail.  The seeker then may adopt an approach that resonates best to his heart.  If, by chance, he finds later on that that particular teacher was a fake, he should leave that teacher and find another.  There need not be any feelings of regret or guilt, for what he needed at that time perhaps was just that – whatever he got!

Some sages suggest that the Guru need not be a fully realized person to communicate the teaching.  In fact Sankara says that some of the Jivanmuktas may not even teach because they do not find an ‘other’ to impart knowledge to.

NDM: Do you think some sort of guru test could be devised, to measure the gurus knowledge about enlightenment, as well as teaching it?

Ramesam Vemuri:  The sort of industrial mass scale manufacturing model of assembly line production, quality tests, setting standards with tolerance ranges, franchising the technology for replication may be inapplicable to Advaita, its core message being there is only One, no other.

Having said that, I would also like to point out, as already expressed in Part –I of our discussion, it will be interesting to investigate if a ‘footprint’ of the absence of doership, universal care, Deep Sleep with Awareness (Yoganidra) and such other markers can be found in the ‘brain’ of a Jivanmukta.  Maybe someday an organization will take up this research work! 

NDM: You touched on the dangers of mis-understanding these ancient non-dual teaching and how they are out there on the internet for anyone to see, and use.

However in the west, what seems to be happening is the final parts of the Vedanta traditions have been cherry picked, appropriated, taken out of context.

Can one really understand advaita without having a deeper knowledge of Vedanta in general? The other aspects that are taught with this to do with dharma and so on?

Ramesam Vemuri:  I am not competent to provide a scholarly response to this question from an academic angle.   I shall highlight, however, a few points to be considered.

The core message of Advaita is straight and simple, invariant with respect to time and space, independent of any background or experience:  The Eternal Truth is no thing is ever born.  There is a caveat though:  until a thought interferes creating a ‘cognizer’ in you here separating from what is ‘cognized’ out there.

Anything, if arises, exists within That Nameless, Formless One.  So any entity that is created (arises or born) is already and naturally a ‘part’ of IT only.  All ‘parts’ being already and automatically within That One Nameless thing, the ancient sages considered the entire creation (universe) as one whole (vasudaiva kutumbakam).  So no ‘part’ required a ‘citizenship’ certificate or conversion from one to another thought process.  Hence the ‘concept of proselytizing’ was never there in Advaita which always pointed only to the Oneness.

If the above message is understood clearly, unambiguously and without a speck of doubt , all pedantic Vedantic discussions, backgrounds of upbringing , epistemological, grammatical, linguistic expertise are unnecessary and ritualistic rites and mandatory obligations are irrelevant.  All such techniques have relevance and a need when one wants to enlarge the individualistic philosophy of Advaita as a mass-curriculum of lessons for teaching purposes. In order to increase the success rate of the teaching, one would also devise methods of preparation (pre-qualifications) for receiving the teaching, minimum eligibility criteria etc.

In this sort of picture, things start to become more complicated particularly when the “theory” is inseparably mixed up with social conditions of life and human relationships using the same terminology interchangeably (e.g. dharma).

In short, IMHO, understanding the core message of Advaita in its Purity has nothing to do with what background one hails from.  An excellent example right in our midst now is Peter Dziuban who arrived at the same Truth of “Nothing is ever born” all by himself without any exposure to Advaita.  I am sure there could be many more.

NDM:  These teachings were deeply rooted in grounded in the matrix of the Indian spiri tual culture and society as a whole.

Do you think its possible to uproot this teaching from a deeply fertile spiritual soil like India and transplant them in a culture like the United States that is very different in many regards.

I ask this because it appears that the US culture is also more about a culture of war, aggression.  The morals also are very different?

Ramesam Vemuri:  The “deeply spiritual soil like India” is a myth.  What were the geographical boundaries of that India of the past where the Advaita philosophy was developed, propagated and taught?  Do they coincide with the present political nation state?  Has entire India and every individual within India retained the same pristine Purity of that ‘matrix’ you imagine to be mandatory?  Were there no wars and aggressions in ancient India?  Were there not constant battles between the so called Gods and Demons even in the Vedic period?

I do not know even if the Hyderabad soil, where I live now and try to understand Advaita, was a part of that ancient Vedic India.

Prof. R. Nisbett and later a few Japanese and other scientists did find a difference in the American culture and that of the people in the Far East.  The Western education trains the mind to focus on the central core issue, whereas the people in the Far East are trained to be more aware of the totality of the scene and the inter-relationships of the elements within. The American culture believed in creating an opportunity for the growth of the “Individual” whereas the social and family structure was more hierarchical in India (at least from what I have seen).  Okay, we are aware of these differences.  But why should they come in my way of true understanding of the basic message of Adviata?  As we have already discussed earlier, the moral values (lakshana) will automatically come with the “Understanding” (lakshya).  How can putting the cart before the horse help?

The Advaitic message is universal, eternal, non-conceptual and unlimited by politico-religious-legal-moral boundaries.  There is no question of uprooting the message.  It is already there everywhere!

 See part 1 of the interview here

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