PART TWO

Continued.

NDM: Can you please tell me how you found your teacher and what this did for you?

Chris Hebard: From this place, this question is fundamentally important. If nothing else is heard in this interview, hopefully, this answer registers.

Truly, the teacher is always present. Everything is Prassad, a gift in answer to our deep longing to return home.

"If the desire for Truth is strong enough, a stone will teach you."  Francis Lucille.

All apparent conflict and crises, no matter how large or small, are magnificent reflections of our deeply held belief in separation.

Anandamayi Ma once said, "There are two kinds of pilgrims on life's journey; the one, a tourist, is keen on sight seeing, wandering from place to place, flitting from one experience to another for the fun of it. The other treads the path that is consistent with man's true being and leads to his real home, to Self Knowledge. 

Sorrow will of a certainty be encountered on the journey undertaken for the sake of sight-seeing and enjoyment. So long as one's real home has not been found, suffering is inevitable. The sense of seperate-ness is the root cause of misery, because it is founded on error, on the conception of duality. This is why it is called 'du-niya ( based on duality)."

All seeking is suffering; there is no difference. Spiritual seeking is no exception. Freedom's watermark is equanimity born of the deep realization of the falsity of belief in containment, the belief that I am separate from that which I witness.

Continuing on, Anandamayi Ma says:

"A man's belief is greatly influenced by his environment; therefore, he should choose the company of the Holy and Wise. Belief means to believe in one's Self, disbelief to  mistake the non-Self for one's Self."

I met my teacher entirely by accident, stumbling along trying to make sense of the discovery that I knew absolutely nothing coupled with a burning desire to understand who I was. In the very fabric of the question, "Who am I ?" is the seed of knowledge of what I actually am. Both the question and the answer arise from the same placeless place.

A friend had a "prior to publication" PDF copy of the book, "Eternity Now" and offered it to me. It was immediately obvious that this book, more than any other I had read to this point, was in a league by itself. It simply, patiently and surgically dismantled the false attachments to identity, revealing something I intuitively knew but could not express.  

At that time, the  author, Francis Lucille, was not nearly as visible as he is today. This was by design. It is fascinating that there seems to be a direct relationship between a teacher's interest in notoriety and the value of his teaching. 

I had no clue who he was. Finding a phone number in the manuscript , I decided to call. 

The person on the other end of the phone, a close associate of Francis Lucille, greeted me with great affection, and suggested I might like to fly in, attend a dialogue, have dinner and watch a movie with friends. Stunned by the informality of the invitation, I immediately went. In one fell swoop, my imagined sense of hierarchy between teacher and student was destroyed. It was discovered that the only price of admission here was a deep and sincere interest in self discovery, nothing more.

I flew to Temecula. The Presence was palpable, the experience of which continues to this day, and for which I have no explanation. 

During these first encounters, there was a total experience of dissolution, unexplainable, outside of what we all 'time and space', in which only pure awareness remained.

Without any objective orientation present, it was an experience of pure freedom of unimaginable depth. As all experiences do, it came and passed over time, but, it left me absolutely certain of the reality of the "destination".

The rest is history. These first visits reset the course of my life. Returning home to Dallas, having no plans beyond that moment, it suddenly occurred to me to sell my home and relocate as close to my teacher as possible. I did so and have never regretted it, even for one moment. It was a tremendous gift of grace.

How important is a consistent and intimate relationship with the teacher? What can you say about the person who gently shows you where the keys to your jail cell are located?

Many ask me, "How does one know when they have met their teacher?" Here, there was no mistaking it. It was as obvious as the nose on my face. 

In answer to this question, Francis once offered this anecdote from his teacher, Jean Klein, as to how he knew he had met his teacher. It was an exercise in three very wise questions to ask the prospective "guru". Here they are:

1) Are you happy?

2) Is your happiness dependent on any thing?

If the teacher answers affirmatively to these first two questions, then, the final question is relevant

3) Can you take me there?

These questions conceal great wisdom.

It takes clarity to understand that seeking enlightenment is actually the seeking of happiness. It occurs when seeking gross and subtle objects have failed miserably to fulfill their goal of bringing us lasting peace and contentment. The second question reveals the hard won knowledge that happiness is never found in the object. When an object, be it relationship, money, career, possessions, even the enlightenment "experience" is obtained, what actually occurs is the cessation of desire. This temporary end of seeking allows happiness and peace, already ever present but concealed, to shine through.

A true teacher, a karana guru, approaches the student , not as a separate person, but as awareness itself, and the unspoken impact of this relationship is mystical and pervasive. It is an active demonstration of the power of Stillness Speaking, the impact of transmission between teacher and student. This aspect is rarely discussed in the West, although Indian Saints, most notably Ramana Maharshi, recognized and discussed this. It is no surprise that there is little written about this here, as it is difficult to report about that which is not in our direct experience.
 

At some point in Self Inquiry, it is true that the mind is no longer useful. It can not and will never come to any successful conceptual understanding of awareness. What occurs is a dissolution of ignorance as the mind realizes its own folly. Ultimately, the vastness reveals itself. In this "seeing", the mind becomes subservient to Presence rather than the other way around.  Once "the mind" sees the Truth regarding awareness, it's struggle ends.

So, what does one do at this delicate point?

The answer is simply, that Stillness actually speaks. As I have quietly shared for years, the greatest and humblest piece of advice I offer others deeply interested in Self Inquiry, the deepest secret I know, is the ineffable benefit of being in the presence of the teacher. It is Presence itself that teaches.

 

If you have been in the presence of a great teacher, you may have experienced this phenomena. Call it shakti, "spaceless space", "Presence", Consciousness or God. This is where the real teaching happens.

As Francis Lucille once shared, "Words are what we do to keep the mind busy while the transmission happens in the silence."

I call it "God's silent kiss".

Of course, some will say this is just so much projected fiction of a desperate ego. It is not. 

A truly under- heralded American mystic, monk and master, Franklin Merrell-Wolff, shared this insight , which he called The Induction. This is a monster revelation in print by a former Harvard and Stanford educated Professor, who left his career behind him when he concluded that consciousness was primary. This conclusion was so unlike his normal rigorous intellectual approach to Self Inquiry, that it stands in stark contrast to it.'

Here is what he said:

"...One time I went through this analysis in 1937 and as I finished it, somehow or other, there was induced in me a state that was later identified as waking Samadhi. It seemed like a great pillar of force surrounding [me] with its center apparently coalescing with the spine. And I would have estimated, as it felt to be, about six feet in diameter, and within that, energies were rising and descending. The body began to get stiff. It was difficult to walk over to the podium. I had been at the blackboard and I rested on the podium. Speech became lower in register. Maintaining function objectively was difficult without breaking the state. I say that the whole audience was involved. You could see it in their faces and so on. I described the state to them for a short time. And when I felt there had been enough of it, because this would be rather strong for one that was green to it, I turned it off. Now that was an easy thing to do. There�s just a little valve somewhere in one�s total psyche -- I call it the butterfly valve. You flip it as easy as you would move a finger. It shifts your consciousness to another way and all of this began running down, like an engine with a flywheel on which the power is turned off.

And I had them, the students, give me a report on their experiences. Almost every student had an induction that night....That is what I mean by induction."
 

In it's entirety, it directly confronts this most remarkable fact:  Awareness reflects back it's Infinity thru the ineffable to those who deeply desire it. Simple as that.

As experienced here,  Self Realization is the tricky and delicate process, apparently in time, in which those thoughts and behaviors, now seen as incongruent with our greater understanding of reality are tagged and allowed to dissipate. Presence may be universal but ignorance has a million faces, each specifically crafted to the unique needs of the individual seeker. To disentangle this mess, and truly benefit from these teachings, it was critical here for there to be someone, both gifted and awake, to share in this humbling and intimate "process in time". How anyone could affect this transition without close access to the dispassionate, equitable and loving assistance of the teacher is simply beyond me. This exploration mines the very deeply held samskaras, conditioning coupled with "the sense of me" attached. One can cooperate with this process of realignment; to do so, the assistance of the guru is priceless.

"From the standpoint of this ephemeral world, the guru who ignites the flame of dispassion and indicates the higher, permanent spirituality  becomes our 'Vihita guru' (the noble one). Once anesthetized by dispassion to the ups and downs of life, we are ready to be led by the 'Karana guru', the one who removes the disease of ''Samsara'' by curing the very cause (karana) of it! "  Swami Tejomayanda Chairman Chinmaya Mission

Francis Lucille: "Enlightenment is the sudden recognition that non-duality is, has always been, and will always be the reality of our experience. Duality is an illusion. Consciousness is not private and personal, but impersonal, universal, and eternal. There is no limited personal entity, no conscious ego. The ego is a perceived object, not the all perceiving awareness. Self realization is the subsequent stabilization in the peace, happiness and freedom of our natural state. The world, seen in the light of impersonal awareness, reveals itself as a permanent miracle, a divine display that celebrates its invisible source."

NDM: What are your thoughts on some people that make enlightenment, self evaluations? For example, they have a few glimpses, read a story online, buy a couple of books and read about someone else's experiences, or shift and come to the conclusion that they then must also be enlightened?  

Do you think there is away to test this?  To know if some one is "Half way up the mountain", as Marianna Caplan refers to it in her book.  Or has enlightenment sickness as James Swartz would say. In Zen they call it the stink of enlightenment?

Chris Hebard: I do not mean to imply that what has been helpful here should be a standard anyone else should use.  I can only speak about whether any particular approach or teacher was helpful for me or not.  Long ago, I discovered that the the "path" followed here, frequently, is not appropriate for others. Who am I to say what approach is correct and what is not? 

As I said before, ignorance has a million faces. Each "individual" receives exactly the experiences it needs in this moment, including disappointing teachers. History is littered with examples of misdirected trust in unqualified teachers. Who are we to say that these encounters did not provide exactly what the seeker needed to learn in that moment? 

 

Many are quick to note that past disasters later were discovered to be significant turning points in their lives --changes that led them to huge breakthroughs. Why would we presume that the difficulties being experienced right now are not actually gifts, designed to help us return home?

This whole idea that there is a proper path is contrary to my experience. Having met many seekers throughout the world, some have followed a rigorous traditional path and others have stepped on a leaf. As Jeff Foster says, "There are no rules for this." 

The proof is in the pudding, the resulting experiential seeing of our true nature. The destination seems the same across many diverse traditions. Part of our charter is to demonstrate non dual wisdom across many traditions, Eastern and Western. Truth is true because is does not change; this understanding is fundamental.

I endorse no standard of certification for "enlightenment."  This is simply based upon my direct experience with innumerable authentically awake people. These people have no interest in publicity, in teaching or notoriety. They are what I call quiet  "jnanis in our midst" , contented and as "clear as a bell". 

I may accept someone's evaluation provisionally regarding a teacher, but, ultimately, I rely on my own experience to judge the relative merits of the teaching. This is the old axiom of Ronald Reagan, "Trust but verify." This inquiry isn't about beliefs. In the teaching business, acceptance does not confer credibility; there are lots of popular teachers out there who are not my cup of tea, but, that doesn't mean that they could not be exactly what another needs. My experience is quite the opposite: everything that is occurring now is exactly what is needed. Is there a place where God is not?

The idea of certification by ignorance of non ignorance is amusing here. It belongs to the province of the mind and is a classic trap. It is the Enlightenment Club. I'm enlightened and you are not. Consider this:  Doesn't this seem a duality in itself? There is only one. There has never been an enlightened human being.

It is a great irony that, in an effort to unravel the delusions of identification and thus reveal our inherent beauty, we can fall prey to yet another identity--this time a "spiritual identity." This sense of separation can become very subtle and hidden from view.

If you follow this, you might enjoy our interview with Jeff Foster entitled Awe and Wonder: Darkest before the Dawn. It covers these issues in depth.

Having said all this, there are some indicators  of an authentic teacher, if you are in close proximity. These are spontaneous  expressions of  gratitude, service, empathy and ease of being. These behaviors are reflections of the under-standing...that which stands under everything. My best advice is as Joesph Campbell once said, "Follow your bliss." For your heart will not lie to you; it is grace itself. 

I hope this helps.

NDM: Yes, thank you. Can you please tell me about the work you do, all these wonderful films you make and who you have interviewed?   What this experience has been like for you meeting all these teachers? What other films you are working on? Who else you have lined up?

Chris  StillnessSpeaks is a labour of love. It simply chronicles my journey of self discovery. It is not intended as a Wikipedia for awakening, but, instead, as a safe resource for like minded people interested in truth. When this search began, there was a dearth of centrally locatable material on Self Inquiry.

As I stumbled along, I simply decided to leave a trail of "channel markers" at sea, just in case anyone else might find themselves trying to navigate their way to shore. There was allot of heavy lifting required here to fully unfold some of these teachings. All of the interviews we have conducted have been on subjects and material that I was greatly interested in. 

The conversations are unrehearsed and represent dialogues in which we humbly and publically explore various teachings. I have been honored by terrific guides including my teacher, Francis Lucille, and many very special friends who have helped me in my housekeeping including James Swartz, Rupert Spira, Chuck Hillig, Peter Dzuiban, Greg Goode, and Jeff Foster. All of these teachers have patiently endured my indulgences and helped me on this journey. For this I am forever indebted. My exploration with different teachers helped accelerate my understanding of various subtleties of these teachings. To a man, these are special guides, each of whom deserve the attention of serious students.

The patience and impartial benevolence of my teacher in  this process is remarkable to me. I do not recommend bouncing around with teachers as a substitute for having a singular guru who is capable of walking with you on this exploration.

We have completed filming a few others that are worthy of mentioning. First, there is a new 2 DVD set with Rupert Spira, entitled LOVE which we hope to release shortly. It is a landmark interview with an emerging giant in non-dual teaching. Second  is an in depth dialogue with Paul Hedderman on Addiction, Recovery and Spiritual Awakening. This DVD focuses on the relationship of addiction and spiritual bankruptcy. It is a practical and direct dialogue on lack in the extreme.

We are currently completing work on a new DVD entitled, " Western Masters of Non-Duality" which asks a series of questions to 16 teachers of advaita including Francis Lucille, Rupert Spira, Joel Morewood, Dr Stephen Wolinsky, Chuck Hillig, Greg Goode, Peter Fenner, James Swartz and others.  Following this project, we intend to release interviews with three scientists discussing how quantum physics affected their spiritual view of the world with Fred Wolf, Amit Goswami and Peter Russell.

There are other teachers we are excited to be interviewing in the near future. More will be announced as agreements are reached.

John, thank you for the opportunity to participate in your new website. I wish you great success with it.

 

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