NDM: Rodney, can you please tell me
about your background and your seeking and why this
began? And did you study any eastern traditions like
Buddhism or yoga of any kind?
Rodney: I'm a little tempted to
play into the William Wordsworth role of "I wandered
lonely as a cloud" and all of that. But actually, I was
a loved child, who grew up in a nice, small southern
town called Pendleton, South Carolina, which is about
four-miles from Clemson University. My mother was a
school librarian, and my father was an immensely-skilled
electrician and plumber, who had very little formal
education.
Even as a kid, I was
always asking the "big" questions: How did the universe
began? What is the meaning of life? What is true
brilliance? I was always wanting to get to the
heart
of things. I never sought out friends. I always went off
into the woods to be alone, and to explore and actually
immerse myself in that "aloneness." And I was
never, ever lonely. I would sit very still oftentimes
for no reason, other than just to "be" very, very still.
I didn't have a clue as to why I was doing it. I guess I
was thinking, in some undeclared way, that the mysteries
of the universe would somehow reveal themselves to me if
I managed to stay quiet enough. And I was always
reading, particularly Sci-Fi novels and books on
mysticism. My favorite subjects were English and
science.
NDM: Did you carry those interests with you to
college?
Rodney: Oh, yeah. And my majors
changed a lot. They included English, pre-med,
philosophy, and psychology. And I was a very poor
student. I just had no lasting interest in anything
(except, of course, the spiritual stuff). At one time, I
thought my inability to remain interested in my studies
may be because of deep psychological flaw or something.
So I took one of the standardized intelligence test.
This insightful and compassionate clinical psychologist
at Clemson University--who knew of my restlessness and
ennui--said, "Rodney, have you ever thought about Mensa?
You qualify." So there were a couple years there of
going to very pleasant meetings and doing Mensa-related
activities. However, the spiritual interests were still
there. And I intuitively knew that intellectual
discussions, however refined and entertaining, would
yield no answers to the Big Questions, especially the
spiritual ones, relating to the "heart" of things, to
existence itself. I knew, even then, that this
understanding had nothing to do with having a high
IQ-score. Besides, everyone is extraordinarily gifted in
some very specific way.
NDM: It's just a matter of discovering it.
Rodney: Precisely. So I quit college and Mensa,
and I held down a long series of odds jobs. The work
allowed me to get at yoga teaching certification from
Ananda Ashram (in Monroe, New York) under the then
legendary yogi and neurosurgeon, Ramamurti S. Mishra,
M.D. He later changed his name to Shri Brahmananda
Sarasvati and wrote several books, including
The
Textbook of Yoga Psychology and
Self Analysis and
Self Knowledge, which is a commentary on Shankara's
celebrated Atma Bodha.
NDM: How was Shri
Brahmananda's commentary?
Rodney: I haven't had a chance to
read it. So I don't know how closely it aligns with true
nonduality.
NDM: I was just curious. Please continue.
Rodney: After my getting my certification at
Ananda Ashram (and this was around 1979 or '80), I
visited monasteries, explored Catholicism, perused the
writings of Meister
Eckhart and Heraclitus, and learned
Transcendental Meditation. And while I still love yoga
(and even continue to do some of the asanas), TM was of
no help me. That's when I started to read the beautiful
and powerful (at least to me then) works of Osho. Then I
went on to read (but not understand)
Talks with
Ramana Maharshi. That book somehow led me to
Nisargadatta Maharaj and his masterwork,
I Am That.
I loved Nisargadatta's book, but I didn't know why. I
just couldn't get the gist of what he was saying. So I
started to explore more contemporary teachers of
nonduality, which led me Robert Adams and "Sailor" Bob
Adamson, and their respective titles,
Silence of the
Heart and What's Wrong with Right Now Unless You
Think About It? And these books--especially Bob's
work--began to put the brakes on my conceptualization,
as well as my assumption that there was this concrete,
individual person that I figured to be me.
NDM: And I believe it was Bob's writing
that led you to John Wheeler and your awakening. Can you
tell me about how this occurred?
Rodney: I first checked John
out on his beautiful web site. And there was something
that immediately "clicked" with his writing, his
details, and his clarity. We use the word "resonating" a
lot in nonduality. But that was unequivocally the case
with me and John's words and perspective. I immediately
ordered his first book,
Awakening to the Natural
State. From the very moment it arrived, everything
about the book felt "right" to me: The title, the prose
style, the presentation, and the pointing. That is why,
even after re-reading it over a dozen times, I wasn't in
the least bothered by any subsequent re-readings. I
intuitively knew that I was closer to some
genuine understanding of who and what I was than I had
ever been in my life. I couldn't articulate that
feeling, but in my heart, I knew it to be the case.
NDM: And it happened.
Rodney: One late-spring evening in 2007, I came
across a sentence that I had read many times before in
the book: "It is all about seeing what is fully present
right now." The beauty and clarity of that statement
truly struck me this time. It was saying, in
essence, that I was already seeing what I
believed
to be not there. My thoughts were saying one thing,
while John's statement was pointing to something else.
Then, suddenly, there was this timeless pause--then
utter peace and spaciousness....But do not
misunderstand: This is not one event happening after the
other. The pause is the spaciousness. There is no
division between the two. One is simply the other, and
the pause is always present...But that was it: The move
from a story-focused life to a life-being-lived. But
really, there is no true movement there. There is only
the seeing and understanding that you were being
lived all along.
NDM: Could you speak a little about the
difference between awakening and permanent liberation?
Rodney: There are simply no series
of "awakenings." I know that some teachers say that
there are, but it is not. This feeds into the myth that
there is a person there to experience these awakenings,
when all there is is the experiences themselves. You
see, when people have these experiences (and I had some
amazing ones), it provides them with fodder for which to
write and talk. It's all about having something to go on
and on about. They want to keep their person-hood
intact, and yet make some great inner discovery. But
there is no person to awaken. Thus, there is no personal
liberation for anyone. And yet, your natural state is
nothing but Liberation. It is Freedom itself. And
once you recognize this true and ever-present immediacy,
it isn't something from which you can be flung. You
are that pristine awareness, and absolutely
everything is That. So where is there for you go?
NDM: Do
you see liberation as when you see and know that you are
awareness?
Rodney: Yes, when you clearly understand that you
are awareness itself. Your body is there, of course; but
like thoughts, emotions, and sensations, your body is an
appearance. It changes. Awareness does not move.
Appearances arise out of it, but the essence of
awareness is always the same.
NDM: So, with this understanding,
you essentially become a Jivanmukta?
Rodney: Yes, "one
who is awake while living," is what I believe the term
means. But no thoughts like that come up here. That's
just a classic advaitic expression that points to this
living reality. And that reality is what radiates for
me, not any terms or descriptions for it.
NDM: Did you ever experienced
nivikalpa samadhi at any time prior to this shift before
reading John Wheeler's book?
Rodney: I did, but
it was so brief--minutes maybe. I've pretty much forgot
what all occurred. But it was just an experience. That's
all! It came, it went. Period. Also, such experiences
are not obligatory precursors of or prerequisites to
what is commonly called "enlightenment." And I assure
you--however spectacular the occurrence might have
been--it in no way compares to this pristine and
living knowingness. There is simply no comparison.
NDM: Why do you think
this understanding happened to you, as opposed to all
the other people all over the world who are desperately seeking
this? Do you think it was grace?
Rodney:
That's a
good question. Do I think it was grace? Only in the
sense that grace is always available. There is no
"special" grace for specific persons. There was no mercy
or reprieves given to me, however lovely and
compassionate a notion that might be. Awareness and
grace are nearly synonymous in my mind, since both point
to a salutariness that is eternal and without bounds. As for
how this happened to me, that's simple: I stopped
overlooking the obvious. I ceased looking beyond what
was directly in front of me. And this "looking beyond"
is precisely what most spiritual seekers the world over
are doing, and it comes in many guises: Meditation,
silence, mindfulness, good works, piety, concentration,
self-mortification, celibacy, etc. Seekers won't find
any answers through any of those because by the
utilization of any of those avenues, you are
automatically looking away from awareness proper. So no
matter how many years or decades you meditate or watch
your thoughts, the Self won't be found. But if that is
what you want to do, then by all means enjoy yourself.
NDM: What is enlightenment?
Rodney: I don't
know. It's not a term that I use.
NDM: Are you awake?
Rodney:
Ultimately, no. For there is no one to awaken. But
relatively speaking, yes. But we shouldn't get
overly-concerned with labels. We have to communicate, we
have to say something. So I try to choose the clearest
terms possible. But even the Buddha forthrightly
replied, when he was asked, "I am awake," fully knowing
that there just the Buddha-field itself, i.e., bare,
unadorned spaciousness.
NDM:
How would you know if someone were actually
enlightened?
Rodney:
It's
pretty easy. No one can talk or write about this for
very long without revealing the depth of his or her
understanding. After a few minutes of conversation or
several paragraphs of text, you generally have a clear
picture of whether the person is the real-deal or not.
But contrary to the myth, you can't just look at someone
and automatically tell if this has occurred.
NDM: Why did you feel it was
important to speak with John Wheeler about this shift
when it occurred? Were you looking for some kind of
validation, approval, or confirmation to double check
this in some way? Or simple clarity?
Rodney:
Good
question. By the second day, I
knew that this was
it. The peace and spaciousness was absolutely unchanged.
So I really didn't feel any great urgency to write to
John after coming to this understanding. I just
continued out the week, gaining some experience with
this, and fully seeing that there was no individual
person here living a life; rather, there just this
body/mind being lived. So by the time I wrote
John, it was more of celebration of the recognition that
had occurred, than a confirmation of it. That was
certainly no needed validation or approval-seeking on my
part. Indeed, that would have clearly indicated that
this understanding had
not taken place! Still, I
went over everything that happened, of course. And John
did confirm it, in his typical, low-key manner: "Yes,
that all sounds good."
NDM: After this liberation or understanding, did you
have the urge to rush out there and communicate this to
others. To begin teaching, spreading the word and doing
satsangs? Or writing a book about it?
Rodney:
Well,
given that I am a writer, the urge to put
fingers-to-keypad came up naturally and quickly. That's
how the blog got started. I also attempted to hold
talks, putting up flyers in various places around the
city, as well as putting some event-ads on Craiglist.
But no one was interested. And that was perfectly okay.
I simply focused on the blog.
NDM: Do you think someone should self
evaluate their awakening or liberation, or do you think
it is wiser to speak to someone who is already gone
through this process? And knows exactly what this is.
Rodney:
There is very
little to evaluate regarding this understanding. Is
there a beginningless, unchanging, presence of awareness
in full evidence? That's it. With that said, being able
to write to or speak with someone with whom this is an
everyday reality certainly has its advantages. But
really, at that point, there are simply no more
questions.
NDM: Rodney, yes, but what about when
someone sees this "consciousness" as an object. A
spirit, or waves of cosmic energy. Or when they look
within and often describe this as "nothingness,
emptiness, the void".
This usually happens when they shift from
no longer identifying with their biography and so on.
They get stuck in the place of negation, the "neti neti'
phase where they see what they are not, through the
process of "not this, not this" but still don't now what
they are. So they now believe that they are a void.
Others have glimpses of being aware of being aware and
see it as being an experience or a "place' or "space"
outside of them that they want to get back to.
How do you guide someone or point to the
understanding that they are the Awareness that is
"aware" of this emptiness, void, being-ness, oneness,
is-ness, such-ness, nothingness? So that a permanent
shift takes place?
RODNEY:
The idea of
emptiness as a void is no "final" understanding. I
realized that some teachings say that this is the case,
but it isn't. And were this purely a conceptual or
theological matter, we would probably have to leave it
at that, with the teaching saying one thing, and I
another. But one of the hallmarks of nonduality is that
it points to a very, very real
presence of
awareness. And though it is translucent, featureless,
and without beginning or end, it is--as the Mundaka
Upanishad so beautifully notes--what "the wise fully
perceive." It only
appears not to be apparent
because, among other things, no one may have pointed out
the fact that your general sense of beingness
is
awareness. Also, we are so used to looking to objects
(thoughts, feelings, sensations, physicality, etc) as
verifications of what is actually present or not that we
entirely overlook that which is immediate and
self-revealing. Awareness doesn't require anything to
make its existence known. For it
is Existence, a
living and cognitizing reality, and you are That.
JOHN; But naturally thoughts,
sensations, still arise and people get sucked into these
thoughts like whirlpools, again and again, so now they
are a void, with the same thoughts, sensations, emotions
arising and find themselves flying into a rage or acting
out the same as before. Then they say, well that's not
me doing that, I' m no longer the doer? That is
"oneness" or "being-ness" doing that?
The question
is
what is
doing that?
RODNEY:
Thoughts and
feelings still come up after you have a clear and solid
understanding of your identity. But there is less
identification with them now. Some you just smile at,
and with others, there may be some strong and immediate
identification. But then it's over. There is very that
lingers any more. Nisargadatta and U.G. Krishnamurti,
just two name two iconoclastic nondual sages, were
always having strong reactions to things, especially
when they were shouting and ranting at some inane query
from a seeker and questioner. But their outward
behavior, at such times, clearly belies their inner
peace and luminosity. On the other hand, such
contemporary master-teachers as Bob Adamson and John
Wheeler are two of nicest and most low-key persons that
you are ever likely to meet.
NDM; What do you do when you use up all your
pointers and they say "yes, I intellectually get that I
am awareness, but nothing has shifted. I still get mad,
loose it when my boss screams at me, I still gamble, get
drunk" and so on.
RODNEY: Essentially, all
a teacher can do is correct misunderstandings and
accurately point to what is already and absolutely
there: Awareness itself. The person may not get it for
some while. And that's okay. And when that happens, I
tend to suggest a break from the topic. There should be
nothing tense or anxious about nonduality whatsoever.
And if the seeker/questioner is earnest (which, to my
mind, is focused, respectful, and has passionate
interest in self-knowledge, and not merely
about
nonduality), then that person is very apt to come to
clear and expedient understanding of who and what he or
she really is. Indeed, I'm almost tempted to say that it
is a given.
NDM; How would you say that your character or your
temperament has changed since this awareness shift?
RODNEY:
There has been
practically no change. I wish I didn't have my
occasional temper and impatience, but they are still
there. And I still can't go any where without a couple
of books and the New York Times, in tow. But all this
occurs from a background of peace and plentitude. I have
noticed, however, a heightened sense of compassion, as
well as the capacity to love a single person far more
deeply than I ever have before, e.g., now there is just
this out-flowing of energy, attention, and homage to
that person, knowing that the beauty that is speaking to
me is presence itself.
NDM; Do you experience bliss at all?
RODNEY:
No, thank God.
Bliss is an experience, and a brief one, at that. The
peace and spaciousness that is ever-present here is
quite natural and ordinary, on one hand, and thoroughly
magnificent, on the other. Most nondual writers and
teachers tend to downplay their descriptions of the
natural state. They do this, in part, because they don't
want seekers turning awareness into an object or an
experience. And I'm certainly sympathetic to that. But I
opt to speak about its profoundness, as well--preferring
to err a bit on the side of poetry, than reticence. But
that's just me. It is neither here nor there, and
ultimately means nothing at all.
For
more info visit
http://radianceofbeing.blogspot.com
|